Product identity
AgentCooper
via web
(I think I got this posted under "Problems" so I try reposting - sorry)
Let me first make it clear, that I think Nirvana is a great product. BUT.. When it comes to the product identity, everything that is wrapped around the actual product, I am a bit concerned.
The logo. If I was to market a new GTD/to do-app, I would not even think about using a checkmark sign in the logo. Why? Because there are TONS of apps in this category doing that. It does not stand out. It is way to literary: "Well our service is about checking off tasks on to do list - I got a great idea! Lets use a checkbox in the logo!". The brand name, Nirvana, is great but I don´t think Nirvana when I see a borring blue checkmark.. Please make my blood pump faster! Also I find the idea of using the checkmark as the V a bit amatourish, not reflecting clever thinking but more like "my first software project".
The slogan. "Get organized". Come on! If the choice was between having a generic slogan like that and not having a slogan at all, I would definitely choose to get rid of it.
Nirvana is a special product but it is just too bad that it does not come across in the product identity. I fear that the developers somehow think that as long as they work hard on making the product great, it will be enough. At some point you need to get away from the coding monitors and sit together in a circle, perhaps with some incense and zen music, and really think about what greater value Nirvana will add to peoples life and how that can be communicated.
2 Posted by Proximo on 31 Oct, 2011 02:53 AM
I like the logo a lot.
The name and the check mark both reflect what they are trying to provide people.
Support Staff 3 Posted by David McLaughlin on 31 Oct, 2011 04:04 PM
@AgentCooper -- You wouldn't happen to be in marketing, would you? LOL
4 Posted by AgentCooper on 01 Nov, 2011 03:40 PM
Proximo: It does reflect that Nirvana are a to do service/app but in a way that is too literal. This kind of 1:1 symbolism can be okay if you are making something no one else does but it is just not distinct.
I am not in marketing or looking for a job :-) Just saying what I think, from a pure consumer perspective. Actually I was looking at nirvanahq.com many times without ever signing up for an invite because I thought "no.. this is not what I am looking for". This immediate reaction comes from years and years of experience in trying out new software. In the case of Nirvana, I was wrong and found out. When I finally did try using Nirvana I was positively surprised that the product was not like i expected but actually a really nice looking and cleverly thought out app. The wrapping gave me a false impression of the product. Now this isn´t really a problem if I am the only one thinking like this but I doubt it.
5 Posted by rfo on 01 Nov, 2011 06:38 PM
At first I dismissed the OP, I generally think the look and feel of the site has steadily improved. I went to the home page for the first time in a long time and noticed that it never says GTD anywhere! Is that a trademark thing that you are not allowed to?
I think the name Nirvana is generally a positive feeling word. I don't think people pick or don't pick based on the name UNLESS the name is really, really bad or really, really good.
People will look at the Product Tour and the active community and I think be drawn in.
6 Posted by diane on 01 Nov, 2011 07:26 PM
I like the name and logo a lot.
Whether people decide to give Nirvana a try or not will depend in part on how we review the apps and word of mouth. Which is why native mobile apps will be critical to luring people in. One of the things that really sways people is when reviewers indicate that developers are very responsive. So I think the emphasis should be service.
FYI the Omnifocus logo is just awful and they do quite well...Im just sayin.
7 Posted by AgentCooper on 02 Nov, 2011 09:46 AM
What I am saying is not that product identity is all that matters or that it is MORE important than the product (and those can´t really be separated since product identity is a part of the overal experience of the product just like the experience of drinking a coca cola has more too it than the taste) but just that it is important in the proces of getting users to try out the service.
Diane: I don´t agree with you on OmniFocus. OmniGroup has taken a stand. They have a product identity that separates OmniFocus from other to do-applications on the market. People i talk with know what I am talking about when i say "an OmniGroup application" or even an "omnigroup-like interface".
8 Posted by diane on 02 Nov, 2011 05:32 PM
I agree they have great product identity and that is just my point they
have that despite the awful logo.
9 Posted by AgentCooper on 02 Nov, 2011 10:15 PM
Diane: But I don´t think their logo is out of tune with their product identity.
What I am after, is a clear and consistent mark on both the user interface and the logo, slogan etc. The interface is great but, like the logo and slogan, also kind of mute. You could easily stick a completely different logo and slogan on Nirvana without making me go "What?!!!" because it really says nothing.
But I realize that nobody agrees with me (at least not in here) so I will rest my case and hope that Nirvana will do just fine.
10 Posted by diane on 03 Nov, 2011 02:12 AM
Your are very sweet to care enough to offer your guidance and provide some
interesting material for discussion and debate!
Thanks for you contribution.
Diane
11 Posted by Proximo on 06 Nov, 2011 04:10 PM
@AgentCooper
Could you share a logo you think would better represent what the Nirvana application is about?
I am a 3D Design and Graphics Manager. I create logo's for our company, for my personal business and for friends. Logo creation is very difficult and generally fall into 3 types.
A logo design that looks cool but has nothing to do or say about the company. This is usually some cool symbol or graphic next to the name of the company or the main identity for the company.
A logo design that represents something about the company but it's not always clear when you first look at the logo. The logo was created to represent something about the company which is sometimes symbolic.
A logo that actually represents the name of the company by it's design. This type of logo is only possible when the company name itself can be expressed by a symbol. One example is "Apple". Their logo is the shape of the fruit which is also the name of the company.
I love creating logo's but I also know it's a very difficult to create good ones or to find which of the 3 styles should be used for said company.
The Nirvana logo is simply the name of the company who's definition is related to what it's trying to allow you to do. Using the V as a check mark allows them to use their company name while hinting what the software provides which is checklists.
I wold love to your ideas.
12 Posted by AgentCooper on 06 Nov, 2011 10:41 PM
Test.
13 Posted by AgentCooper on 06 Nov, 2011 10:44 PM
I don´t get this..!? Sometimes I just can´t post. Other times my post is send without problems.
Well. Here is what I wanted to say:
I am not the right person to define what Nirvana is about - the Nirvana-team is. My point is exactly that I am the one left asking that question! The vague logo and the cliché slogan is not labeling my experience with the product.
I don´t think it would be serious if I said "you should do like this and make a logo that looked like that".. because:
a) I didn´t make Nirvana so I don´t know what the underlying vision and values are, and
b) As you probably know, doing stuff like this takes time. If I could just come up with something while writing a forum post, it would really defeat my own point: that this is something that requires effort - hours and hours of thinking, designing/redesigning, doing research, testing different designs etc. It is easy to launch Photoshop and make something that looks cool. It is way harder to come up with something that really captures (defines!) the essence of what the product is about and communicates that in a simple yet effective way.
14 Posted by AgentCooper on 06 Nov, 2011 10:48 PM
grrrr... this system hates me. I can´t post the last part of my post. I have no idea why. Maybe because I am too critical!!
15 Posted by Proximo on 07 Nov, 2011 08:43 AM
AgentCooper
I agree that's it's difficult and takes a lot of time. Figured I ask just in case you had an idea already. :-)
It's not something anyone could easily do without input from the Nirvana team as you mentioned.
Thanks
16 Posted by AgentCooper on 07 Nov, 2011 11:11 AM
Nirvana is a mental/spiritual state, an ideal condition of peace and feeling alive. To me, this concept stands in direct opposition to a checkbox. Besides being boring and overly used in marketing for to do apps, a checkbox is associated with process and systems instead of sense of purpose, mental rest.
I would go a bit more abstract in the logo design focusing more on how the product makes me feel (like the name does).
17 Posted by Proximo on 14 Nov, 2011 03:21 AM
No matter what definition you go with, I think having all the things in life pulling you in different directions under control is "Nirvana".
Another definition:
A transcendent state in which there is neither suffering, desire, nor sense of self, and the subject is released from the effects of...
When I have my task (Check Boxes) completed. I feel much better. I don't suffer from the constant feeling of being behind, I don't have the desire to work longer hours.
:-)
I feel...... Nirvana.
18 Posted by AgentCooper on 14 Nov, 2011 08:23 AM
Proximo: I understand what you say and i´m sure that is the reasoning behind the overly used checkbox/checkmark symbols in GTD apps. Still the checkmark is a system part, it highlights the tool, the tech, the means - all which are not inherently meaningful but can actually be the exact opposite.
19 Posted by AgentCooper on 14 Nov, 2011 08:35 AM
I would like a little magical and clever symbol that makes me think of Nirvana as something different than my e-mail and my calendar - not just another system but a place I like being, a place that doesn´t stress me, a quite place, a little temple I can go into during the day.. Just to think for a few minutes, to get the overview. And then I walk back out into the hectic life with renewed energy and some things on a list that I really feel like is the right thing to do.
20 Posted by Phil on 14 Nov, 2011 10:31 PM
@AgentCooper - I suggest the logo be changed to a pot leaf then. It satisfies all of your criteria.
Just kidding.
I hear what you're saying and might agree if someone were to come up with a really beautiful logo that conveyed all of those things and was still somehow associated with the Nirvana GTD service.
I for one kind of like the ubiquitous check mark. It just makes it easy to identify what the service does. When I fire up my iPhone or iPad and see the checkmark on an app icon, I know that there's my cheklist app.
It's commonly used because it's simple and makes the most sense, 2 qualities that are hard to argue with when one is choosing a symbol for something.
21 Posted by Proximo on 15 Nov, 2011 01:41 AM
I guess I don't read into the logo so much that I loose sleep over it.
All I care about is the applications functionality in helping me achieve my goal.
The logo could be a piece of Turd for all I care. Maybe that's also a good logo idea since it's how I feel in the morning when I start the app.
22 Posted by AgentCooper on 15 Nov, 2011 06:45 AM
Phil: I agree with you as far as saying, that it is better to go with something straight-forward but generic than something that is so abstract that people can´t make the connection between the product and the logo. The art is making a logo that puzzles people a bit without leaving them clueless. And yes, that is hard and takes lots of time. Just as it is hard and takes lot of time to write a web app as good as Nirvana.
Proximo:
My sleep is fine, thanks! I know Nirvana is special. My concern is more on the business side of things, in getting critical mass and keeping people in because they feel that what they are using is a truly different experience than using other GTD apps (right now the product is unique because it simply works better than the competitors - that might change along the road though).
I don´t know you but I don´t even think that is true. Would you really like to click on that little peace of turd everyday? Is it something you would want in your browser and on your iPhone springboard and in the interface itself? Aesthetics matters and can´t be separated from the more functional/usability aspects of using the product. Still I am not just talking about that logo (though it is important) but also about leaving a mark on the interface.
23 Posted by AgentCooper on 15 Nov, 2011 06:55 AM
Just one more thing that relates to this discussion. I don´t get why you can change the fonts in the interface. To me that communicates "we don´t know what we want things to look like". Almost as disturbing as making a function where you can upload your own little jpg-logo.
24 Posted by AgentCooper on 15 Nov, 2011 01:04 PM
Look at http://www.zendone.com - They have a little worker bee with a face that looks like the little man on the Pringles chips. So clever. Why can´t we get a bee?!
25 Posted by diane on 15 Nov, 2011 09:16 PM
I agree that perseverating over the logo is a waste of time however...
I love you Proximo but that was totally uncalled for and uncharacteristic
of you!
I hope you do not really feel like sh_t every morning.
One would think an ardent GTD er would approach the day with a
calm optimistic attitude.
Diane
26 Posted by AgentCooper on 15 Nov, 2011 09:55 PM
I promise not to complain more and just hopes that the Nirvana dev team will make me a custom AgentCooper-UI with a temple, tea-leafs and a cute animal of some kind.
27 Posted by Proximo on 16 Nov, 2011 03:57 PM
@diane,
I was only kidding. :-)
I love logo's but don't spend so much time thinking about it. I have things that need to get done.
I also don't feel like a turd in the morning. Every morning is a gift and you can choose how you will live that day. I choose to treat every day as a gift and have a great attitude towards it.
@AgentCooper
The Zendone logo is not a bee. It's a little man with a Propeller sticking out of his back. He seems pressed for time because he does not even strap on his helmet before he took off flying. Seems like he needs to get organized and take the time to wear more stylish clothing while he is at it.
LOL
Just kidding again.
28 Posted by ste.witton on 18 Nov, 2011 12:50 PM
I agree with AgentCooper about the logo - I also think the name is not very good (it just makes me think of the band).
But I think the quality of the product is the most important aspect and, if you're not a mega-global corporation looking for market saturation, word of mouth is the best marketing tool you can have. I love the product and will evangelise whenever the opportunity arises :-)
But please, for the love of god, make the iPhone app badge beautiful so it can take pride of place on my home screen (the web app badge when placed on the home screen looks cheap and shoddy).
29 Posted by Proximo on 18 Nov, 2011 07:40 PM
I think we should respect the name chosen by the developer and it's actually not a bad name at all. The state of Nirvana is something that everyone would want to be in, but you must get things in your life under control to reach it. So it makes sense to me.
The logo. It may not be the best in the world, but it's not that bad either. If Nirvana Staff decided to change it down the road with nicer dressing or come up with something totally different, that would be cool. Other popular sites have done this more than once.
I am sure this is the least of Nirvana's worries at the moment, but it does not hurt to make the suggestion. Maybe Nirvana staff will hold a logo contest after they go live and offer a 1 year free subscription to the person who provides the new logo they go with. This always get's people's creative juices flowing. :-)
So there you have it Nirvana staff. If you are considering a logo change down the road, just make it a competition with a free prize and you should get a bunch of great ideas to help you along.