Competition
I'm not sure if we are allowed to post about other GTD-oriented
task managers, feel free to delete this thread if it violates
anything.
Recently I was searching Vimeo for the term GTD, and look what I
found: SmartyTask for
GTD
I immediately thought of Nirvana, and then wanted to know what
would Proximo think. =D
Comments are currently closed for this discussion. You can start a new one.
2 Posted by Lasse on 03 Jun, 2010 10:20 PM
When I started using GTD apps a few months ago, I was active in a competitor's forum whose guidelines strictly prohibited mentioning other apps. Posts that violated this rule were deleted. This had the rather ridiculous effect that people constantly referred to competing products in code (Nirvana was "the nice-looking web based rip-off" :)). From my experience Nirvana lets users mention other apps, which I think makes sense. After all, as Harry Potter was well aware, calling Voldemort by name shows you're not afraid of "You know who". :) And I think Nirvana has no reason to fear any competitor, especially not one who offers no Today view and no tags but charges 10 $ a month - talk about "ridiculously overpriced"! :)
I did think that being able to estimate time and effort was a nice idea, though (even though I probably wouldn't use that function).
3 Posted by Proximo on 04 Jun, 2010 10:08 PM
@Photon,
I don't think Nirvana cares if we mention competitors because they can get great feedback from us on what we think and potentially implement into Nirvana.
Let me say that SmartyTask is implementing GTD nicely. I have said it many times on these forums that Time and Energy are critical parts of GTD and something I would like Nirvana to add.
In-line editing is another example of what many of us here want and SmartyTask does it well.
Smart list is what SmartyTask calls smart context but it can still give the Nirvana team some ideas.
Tags are not actually part of GTD, context are. Nirvana uses tags for the purpose of context or anything else you would like to use them for, but I only use tags for context and I don't use them for Time, Energy or any other weird idea because it clutters things up.
So looking at SmartyTask there are things I really like about it.
I don't know if they implemented Projects Next Actions correctly by only showing these task in the Next List (Actions list). This is something Nirvana is not currently doing either but I believe they are working at fixing it.
Again, SmartyTask does many things right but I am sure as you use it you can find things that need tweaking. Nirvana is in beta and as they implement more of the core GTD concepts, I think they will close the gap with some of the things SmartyTask is doing well.
Looks like Lasse checked their site out which I have not, but if it cost $10 a month, I would consider that very expensive.
Nirvana is great but could be better. The users here are truly working as beta testers with great discussions and feedback that will help Nirvana become better.
I think looking at competitors is a good thing because you can get ideas from them.
Thanks for sharing.
4 Posted by PeterW on 05 Jun, 2010 01:39 AM
Smartytask is very new... released May 25. It's also very expensive compared with other systems. And the trial period is very short.
That said, it has some very nice features and looks great. They've done a great job with the video.
So many questions though and no user forums yet so it's difficult to know more without actually trying it out. And I don't like the fact that you have to register your credit card to begin the trial which means you must ensure you opt out before 7 days is up to avoid being charged. Just feels a bit forced in my opinion.
Not having a native iPhone app is problematic. Unfortunately mobile web solutions just don't cut it for me. And there was no mention of an API which would enable existing iPhone apps to sync with it.
Is anyone going to give it a go?
@Proximo - agree with your comments. Inline editing is so much better that using a dialogue box.
5 Posted by Robin on 05 Jun, 2010 03:10 PM
SmartyTask looks very nice. Almost exactly how i'd imagine the perfect GTD system.
It's a bit expensive and I don't have the money to try it now but will weight it up later when Nirvana is pay for. The main things I like about it are...
Would like to know if is that fast in real life (i doubt it). Nirvana is still great and there isn't a huge gap between them.
Support Staff 6 Posted by Christiane Magee on 07 Jun, 2010 02:15 PM
Hi all... we have no community guidelines, but I would say that the only "rules" we'd strongly enforce is that people to be civil and respectful to one another, and, so far so good. We have never had to warn any users or delete any comments (other than spam or vacation messages!)
We honestly don't care if people talk about or mention competitors within the Community. We live in the internet world... pretty darn easy to find out what people are saying about other apps and us. If these conversations happen in the Nirvana Community, this is to our advantage since we read your conversations first hand and you save us time spent trolling the internet.
So chit chat away... healthy competition is good and only helps to improve products all around for you guys - the users.
:)
C
7 Posted by PeterW on 08 Jun, 2010 08:02 AM
So I decided to sign up and try Smartytask. After 30 minutes with it, here are some initial comments:
Interface - very nice and yes Robin, it is that fast in real life. Everything happens instantaneously. No lag at all. Drag & drop is very smooth. There were a couple of glitches, e.g. the Time/Effort field wrapped to a new line in FireFox and Chrome when used but it did not do this in IE. It's probably only a small fix and I've reported it already.
Due date is not displayed in the task view except for Ticklers. I guess this is intentional but it was a bit too minimalistic for me. Both Nirvana and Toodledo (in mutli-line mode) show the due date with the task name.
You can have sub-contexts! Can't remember if that was in the video but it's pretty neat. E.g. for the context Work, I created a sub-contrxt for Office and another for Meeting (to cater for a weekly management meeting that I attend). Worked pretty well.
Projects - nice implementation. Next actions are shown in the Actions list as you'd want (with the project name alongside the task name).
Smart Contexts - these are really what I'd call filters and they work nicely. For example, I created a Focus (Today) list. Given that you can set your own rules, it is a nice and flexible feature.
Email to Inbox - not available yet but the developer says it will be within a matter of days.
Overview - this is an all-in-one view of all tasks separated into single actions and project actions. You can bring it up via a link at the bottom of the screen and it also displays automatically when you're in the Inbox (and is collapsible in the inbox view, I guess if you need the space).
Mobile (browser) version - the website disclaimer says it has limited functionality but I found it very functional and responsive. Certainly not as good as a native iPhone app but you could definitely get by with it. The developer's tweets seem to indicate that an iPhone app will come first, and they've also said that they are working on an API so it might be possible to sync third-party apps in time.
There is no import feature so you'd have to enter all your tasks manually. And there are no plans for this at the present either.
Overall, I would have to say that it's a great start although still feels a bit like a beta to me. Which would be fine if you didn't have to pay. I think Nirvana is taking a better approach in this regard but I guess if Smartytask improves its feature set consistently over time then it would be OK. Only time will tell.
Support Staff 8 Posted by Elbert McLaughlin on 08 Jun, 2010 01:43 PM
thanks for letting us know what other's in the space are up to. :-)
ok, time to press the pedal to the metal...
!!!
Support Staff 9 Posted by Elbert McLaughlin on 08 Jun, 2010 01:57 PM
Hmmm... they've got some great ideas. and I do like the look. will keep an eye on them for sure.
10 Posted by Proximo on 09 Jun, 2010 03:26 AM
You can take them Elbert, they are no match for your quick coding
fingers.
11 Posted by Proximo on 09 Jun, 2010 03:29 AM
It's on now.
12 Posted by Nuno Donato on 09 Jun, 2010 09:37 AM
Hi all,
I'm getting frustrated on the huge ammount on the so called "gtd" apps popping up everyday, most of them not even following some basic core GTD concepts.
Nirvana is one exception, as its implementing things quite nicely.
I took a peak at SmartyTask, it looks nice! But there are some important things missing... where are the Pendings/Waiting Fors? Without it, I would reject any app as a GTD app, as its a very fundamental piece of the GTD workflow.
Nuno
13 Posted by Proximo on 09 Jun, 2010 11:07 AM
Energy/Effort and time are also fundamental to GTD and tags is not the
right way to do it.
I agree that many apps do fall short of getting the basics correctly
but SmartyTask is doing many things correctly.
At least Nirvana is waiting to have most of these in place before
charging and going out of beta.
I don't know much about coding, but speed is a Major advantage and
something to always keep an eye on.
No matter what anyone thinks, the iPhone is still the defacto platform
to develop for and a serious contender needs to have an iPhone app.
What code are they writting SmartyTask in? It's amazingly fast and
responsive.
Support Staff 14 Posted by Christiane Magee on 09 Jun, 2010 02:14 PM
Hi @nuno... thanks for calling us out as an GTD app exception. We like to hear that! We are working to make it more so.
@proximo... you'll be happy to hear that we are working on implementing Energy/Effort and we are making big strides in making the app faster. So, yep... it's on.
;)
15 Posted by Proximo on 09 Jun, 2010 05:34 PM
@Christiane,
That's great to hear. One thing I don't like is how the list in SmartyTask are centered around the context. I like the way Nirvana list all my Next Actions and then let's me filter by context from there.
Not sure if this makes sense, but from the video it seems that SmartyTask separates your Next Actions into context list and I rather work from a main list that can be filtered by context instead. Nirvana does exactly that and I like it much better.
Go Nirvana
16 Posted by chris101 on 10 Jun, 2010 12:57 AM
To their credit, that Overview page looks awesome. I'd love to see Nirvana introduce something similar.
17 Posted by PeterW on 10 Jun, 2010 01:10 AM
@Proximo - you make a good point. There are times that I also like to be able to see the big picture rather than be forced to view via context. Toodledo is good for that too, and Smartytask does it via the Overview which I think is a very neat feature.
Anyway, quick update on the trial...
After the initial response from the developer, I've received no further responses to my follow-up questions and bug reports over the past two days. This is a big problem when you're in the middle of a 7-day trial - if I don't know if/when something will be addressed, then I'm not likely to pay to continue using the solution. There are no user forums either at present so there is no other way for me to obtain guidance (actually they have a phone number but I live on the other side of the world so timezone is a problem).
On that basis I decided to cancel the trial today because it's pointless paying $10 if I have no clue whether any of the issues I have will be addressed. At this stage I'd have to say that Smartytask is just not ready - it's a beta but not worth paying for without any clear communication from the developer as to if/when issues will be resolved.
Nonetheless the brief trial has given me some ideas about what I'd like to see in a GTD solution in terms hanlding Time/Energy and how Projects can be displayed and handled. And I liked their page style and some of the navigation elements. No doubt they will improve over time.
Support Staff 18 Posted by Elbert McLaughlin on 10 Jun, 2010 03:01 AM
OK, one more screen shot before I turn in for the night.
Nothing like a little competition to light my pants on fire.
Support Staff 19 Posted by Elbert McLaughlin on 10 Jun, 2010 03:33 AM
oh, and there is one more thing... we actually managed to get Nirvana working in IE 7 today.
what?! 本当だぜい, c'est vrai, mi amigo. totally stoked.
ok, g'night.
20 Posted by mike on 10 Jun, 2010 03:34 AM
Wow on the screenshot and congrats on getting it working on IE7!
Looking forward to the next update!
21 Posted by Elurven on 10 Jun, 2010 08:10 AM
@Elbert: That screenshot was very slick :-)!
22 Posted by Proximo on 10 Jun, 2010 08:02 PM
We have awoken a Sleeping GIANT!
23 Posted by Photon on 10 Jun, 2010 08:06 PM
That's the whole point. :D
24 Posted by PeterW on 11 Jun, 2010 01:25 AM
Still no answers from the Smartytask developer on the bugs etc although he advised me that email to inbox is now live. I've tested it and it works.
BTW if you cancel your trial subscription, the credit card info is removed from your account so that it won't be billed at the 7-day mark but the actual account login remains active so you can continue to use the trial until 7 days is up. Just thought I'd mention that in case anyone else wants to give it a try.
25 Posted by Proximo on 11 Jun, 2010 12:50 PM
I have gotten so comfortable with Nirvana that I have not used the 7 day trial. Not to say that I won't because it's a good idea.
In the past I was trying so many GTD apps because I never found a single one that I really liked. When I found a new GTD app, I would start to use it with the joy of a child getting some Candy. I always went in with high hopes of "Maybe this will be it" and have walked away disappointed.
Now with Nirvana, I don't fee I have to do this and it's a nice feeling.
I will use up the 7 day trial to SmartyTask to see what I like and what I don't.
26 Posted by Proximo on 11 Jun, 2010 12:54 PM
I have a question.....
27 Posted by Lasse on 11 Jun, 2010 01:02 PM
@Proximo: Having read your preceding post I was almost expecting your question to be something like "Nirvana, will you marry me?" :)
Support Staff 28 Posted by Elbert McLaughlin on 11 Jun, 2010 01:04 PM
@proximo...
hmmm.... i don't know....
;-)
29 Posted by Lasse on 11 Jun, 2010 02:07 PM
A thought about the screenshot: I noticed that the context cloud - which I really like - seemed to include all tags, whether they were for a context or not. While assigning context in Nirvana is accomplished through tags (unless you use AoR for that, which I don't), I'd still rather keep context and other tags seperate. Maybe this could be done by displaying only tags in the context cloud that include "@" in their name.
Then again, I also like the idea of being able to display all tasks with a certain tag (irrespective of the list they're in) by simply clicking in the cloud. Hmm... And if the cloud displayed all tags, you could make the cloud the tag management area by simply displaying "edit" when you hover over it... Just thinking aloud here. Maybe you could keep all tags in the cloud but still somehow keep tags and context visually seperate.
30 Posted by DC Clarke on 11 Jun, 2010 02:08 PM
Wow! SmartyPants err SmaryTasks is expensive! $100 per year starts to make you think about whether you are really using something or not.
I do like the overview page. But I'm certainly not swayed away from Nirvana.
Elbert, can you keep teasing us with those screenshots? !!!
Support Staff 31 Posted by Elbert McLaughlin on 11 Jun, 2010 02:39 PM
@dc clarke - ok. :-)
attached: two windows currently open on my desktop...