deleted items are not deleted - privacy issue
Rolf Schudde
via web
When I do a data export on the global account settings page, basically everything that I ever entered into nirvana shows up, including items that I have deleted. I consider this a bit of a privacy issue, and I'd like to know the opinions of my fellow nirvana users, and Nirvana's policy on really removing deleted items.
2 Posted by Chris Webb on 24 Aug, 2011 04:29 PM
I'm not sure I understand the problem. Privacy is only a consideration in terms of WHO sees your data, and from within Nirvana that's just you isn't it? The fact that you can see data that you input and then deleted doesn't have any 'privacy' implications that I can see?
It is also highly possible that I'm missing something.
3 Posted by robmutsaars on 24 Aug, 2011 06:34 PM
I think the point Rolf is trying to make is, is that -whenever you delete an item from Nirvana- you expect it to be gone and deleted from the database. The fact that the deleted item shows up in an export demonstrates that the item is not really deleted from the database but sort of 'flagged as deleted/invisible'
the privacy concern one could struggle with is for instance if you share (for whatever reason) a Nirvana account across a team. Member A creates a task - deletes the task - thinks it's gone - and member B (who uses the same account) can do an export of the tasks and the deleted tasks shows up again.
Personally i am not that bothered by that (although i would indeed expect that a deleted task is really deleted) but at least that is how i would see the privacy risk ;-)
@Rolf, is this what you mean ?
4 Posted by Chris Webb on 24 Aug, 2011 10:49 PM
But nirvana currently has no collaborative functionality and therefore anyone allowing multiple access to one account is already implicity accepting a lack of privacy to all tasks. The deletion aspect is irrelevant isn't it?
5 Posted by Proximo on 25 Aug, 2011 02:27 AM
Did you empty the Trash before exporting?
Does not hurt to ask.
6 Posted by Rolf on 25 Aug, 2011 07:19 AM
I emptied the trash before the export, and that is exactly my point. When I've deleted something, and subsequently emptied the trash, I expect it to be gone, and for all practical purposes gone forever. The information is mine, so I want to be the one that decides what happens with it.
There may be technical reasons why portions of deleted data may remain in the system, but fully restoring all deleted data should definitely be a non-trivial matter. For instance: When -- god forbid -- the nirvana servers are compromised, everything every user has ever entered is ready for the taking. That is an unnecessary risk, not only for the users of the system, but also for nirvana from a legal point of view.
Furthermore, what happens when I close my nirvana account? Is my information still only flagged as deleted, or is that the only time the DELETE command is executed on the database?
Finally, from a business perspective, storing less data costs less, results in faster database queries and happier customers. So I would like to see emptied trash gone forever.
7 Posted by Chris Webb on 25 Aug, 2011 08:02 AM
I've just done a test on this and I seem to have got a different result: I exported to .csv before emptying the trash and I saw a whole bunch of tasks with a 'State' of 'Trashed'.
I then emptied the Trash, re-exported, and then had no items with a status of 'Trashed' and no record of any of those items.
Just a random question but what format did you delete to (although not sure why that would make a difference)?
8 Posted by Rolf on 25 Aug, 2011 10:53 AM
When I export to csv, I even see the original "Welcome to Nirvana" and "brush up on GTD" tasks with status "logged".
In fact, the data export shows around 300 "logged" tasks, while my logbook in the userinterface only shows some 50 completed or cancelled tasks...
9 Posted by Chris Webb on 25 Aug, 2011 11:51 AM
I'm now stumped. That's not the behaviour I'm seeing at all.
At the risk of asking an infuriating question you HAVE moved those 250 logged items you''re referring to manually to the trash haven't you, as opposed to just marked them complete?
10 Posted by Rolf on 25 Aug, 2011 11:53 AM
I have.
Support Staff 11 Posted by David McLaughlin on 26 Aug, 2011 08:06 PM
OK - let's see if I can answer the questions raised here.
1) Your tasks, projects, and tags (including contacts) are physically deleted when you cancel your account - that is true today.
2) Those items that are in the trash when the trash is emptied are considered deleted -- they should not show in the Export -- that's a bug that has been fixed in a test build and will be in the next public release.
3) Items in trash (non-emptied) are available so they can be restored if needed - like the Trash [mac] and Recycle Bin [pc] works.
4) We can't do an immediate physical delete of items flagged for delete, as they are required in the synch process in order to update the status of any devices that have been disconnected, so when they are reconnected they can be flagged deleted there as well, otherwise they would be appear as "new" tasks/projects and re-added to the database
5) Collaboration features when the come out will only give shared access to the projects & users defined -- not any non-shared personal projects/tasks in your account. If you share one account, you have to expect full visibility to anyone sharing - just as in any other system.
Hope that helps.
David
12 Posted by Proximo on 29 Aug, 2011 02:14 AM
Great explanation David.
I think deleting anything immediately is a very bad option. How many of you click on the Print button and only then do you realized you needed to make a small change?
I would go crazy if I deleted a task or project and did not have the option to rebound it back. :-) My brain seems to only catch mistakes after I made the choice.
13 Posted by haeffb on 30 Aug, 2011 02:47 AM
I use "Print" to remind me of what else I needed to do before printing...
14 Posted by Proximo on 31 Aug, 2011 10:49 PM
ROFL @haeffb
Maybe there needs to be a dummy "Print" button that you press to catch these errors.