I don't understand how I should use: Today, Next, Someday and Waiting for.
Markus Eriksson
via web
On of my current projects are to plan my wedding. I have 2 task in the project right now. This is my GTD categorazation on these tasks:
- Set up a time to meet the priest. (Urgent = My next action,
maeby not today but the next thing I should do in The wedding
project)
- Buy cuff links (Not that urgent, I'll do it someday)
When i put (1) in NEXT and (2) in SOMEDAY according to the GTD philosophy They all disapere from my the project.
I can find the tasks in NEXT and SOMEDAY but I cannot see which project they are designated too.
The only way to get it to work as I beleieve it should is too use the "add to today", then I can see the task in the project aswell as in TODAY. The same works for WAITING FOR.
This should be available for NEXT and SOMEDAY asweel or else these two categories can just be used for single task without projects.
I know there are similar threads but I need a personal answer of how I should solve this problem.
Best regards
Markus Eriksson
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Support Staff 2 Posted by Christiane Magee on 26 May, 2010 03:01 PM
Hi Markus...
thanks for writing in with your question.
First off, if your Project is active, all tasks are considered to be active and can live in Next, Today, Waiting For and in the Project itself. Someday is a place for inactive projects and tasks. If you were to drag your active Project's task out into Someday, it will effectively remove that task from the project and place it into Someday and make it inactive. So the project association is removed. I'll let some some hardcore GTDers chime in if this is 100% GTD right or wrong :).
While in NEXT, there is a button located below the tag area and above your tasks called
Hide ProjectsorInclude Projectsdepending on what you have that button currently set to . If you selectInclude Projects, you will see your Project name "Wedding" and the list of tasks below it.You will see, when you have
Show Projectstoggled, that your Project will show the next 3 tasks in the order in which you sorted them in your Project view. If there are more than three tasks in your project, you'll see a link that says "X more...". Click on that and you will see the rest of your tasks for that project.If you were to have the button
Hide TodayShow Todaytoggled to "show", you will also be able to see any tasks that you have marked as Today for that project.I hope this answers you question.
3 Posted by Markus Eriksson on 26 May, 2010 03:26 PM
But if I have a few important tasks in a few projects I can't put them in NEXT. I'll have to put them in TODAY or just show in their projects in NEXT. Then ALL my tasks in projects are next actions. Let's say you have 20 projects your next will have 60 tasks showing and you can't get any overveiw or for that matter get any of them done. I would like to prioaritize between the projects.
Why can i designate a few things to do TODAY but not as just the next thing to do? I already have a project list on the left. Why include all my tasks again in NEXT.
I think I just will have to use TODAY as the GTD's next action.
4 Posted by Markus Eriksson on 26 May, 2010 03:29 PM
One more thing.....This problem that I encounter might just be my mind set. I'm used to another system and just need time to get my head around it. I believe you have a reason for your design. Maeby I just need some time. =)
Support Staff 5 Posted by Christiane Magee on 26 May, 2010 03:58 PM
Ah... perhaps this is the case. I'd love it if some other users would
add their 2¢ worth as may have used other online GTD apps as well.
6 Posted by kbaxter on 26 May, 2010 05:55 PM
I agree that the next list is unintuitive and pretty much unusable as it is. What I'd really like is a next list that functions basically the same way as the today list, but with an easier way to move tasks in projects on and off the list.
In another thread, I saw a suggestion that a project could include "active" and "inactive" actions, with a UI just like the active/inactive projects. Actions could be dragged between these two categories.
I would like my next list to show all my single actions (except those scheduled in the future, once task scheduling is added), and all the "active" actions from my projects. The active actions from projects wouldn't need to be separated out in a projects section - they could sit right with the single actions like they do in the today view.
As it is, I never use the next list. I mark all my "next" actions as "today" and use the today view while ignoring the next view. If some changes were made to the next list to make it usable, it would be very nice to be able to use the "today" list as intended!
The poor "next" functionality and lack scheduled/recurring tasks are really my only two gripes with Nirvana.
Support Staff 7 Posted by Christiane Magee on 27 May, 2010 01:17 PM
Hi Kate... thanks for contributing your thoughts. NEXT does need work and it's helpful to hear your thoughts on this.
That's a good thing as I see these definitely getting resolved. :)
8 Posted by Proximo on 27 May, 2010 06:24 PM
There are two types of Next Actions in GTD.
Single task and Project task
Projects are used for anything that requires 2 or more steps/actions to complete where single task stand on their own.
The Next list is where all your Single Task live and by default they are ALL Next Actions because completing any one of them would complete the task.
The Project list is where all your Projects are located which have multiple task associated with them. The Projects are different in that they have one task that is a Next Action which must be completed before you can move on to the next task.
In GTD you can't complete projects, but simply complete the Next Action that will move it forward. This is true for sequential projects.
You may have a Project with sequential task and parallel task that makes it possible to have more than one Next Action because the parallel task are not specifically associated and can be completed independently of the other task.
Some of the confusion comes from how Nirvana currently handles these two list which deviates slightly from the GTD Methodology. This is currently being looked at and we hope for a change in the near future.
Let me explain briefly why these two list are confusing in Nirvana as it works today.
Ideally, the Next List should show all your Next task to include Single Task and Project Task. This allows you to scan only the task that you can actually take action on and help you Get Things Done. Nirvana does show Project task in your Next List but it does not give you the option of showing only the Next Actions of the Project.
You must think of the Next List and Project List as two separate list. You CAN show the Projects in your Next List as Christiane mentioned but the problem here is that you will see the top 3 task as they are sorted in your Project list. These task are not necessarily your Next Actions for that Project and again, creates confusion.
How it should work
In the future I hope to see the Next List become universal and show all Next Actions as it should. Projects should have a way to flag which task are considered Next Actions in order to show them in the Next List while keeping all other task away from the Next List.
Project task marked as Next Actions should appear in the Next list as a normal task and not separated by a Project Header. The Project task should simply show the link to the Project just like the Today list handles it.
Dragging a task from the Projects to the Next List should make that task a Next Action while keeping it in the Projects and prevent it from being removed from the Project itself, which is how it works today.
If you are new to GTD, it's actually a very simple system that I believe you would enjoy but it may seem confusing if you don't understand the Methodology.
Here is a good link to get you started in understanding GTD.
http://www.bnet.com/2403-13074_23-52958.html
Nirvana implements GTD very well but it's not perfect. The great thing is that we are working to make it perfect or as perfect as we can hope for. :-)
Great feedback like yours is key in making this happen and the Nirvana Team does a fantastic job of listening to their users. Let me know if I can help you in any way.
Rock On!
9 Posted by JonC on 27 May, 2010 06:37 PM
I agree completely with how Proximo envisions it should work. This is essentially how it works in www.getidoneapp.com. Each project is separated into next, not-next (something like that), someday, and waiting for. You can move individual actions to the different categories while in the project view. Then, when you click the next, it shows all next, including project items. The same for all the other categories.
P.S. Don't think I'm recommending www.getitdoneapp.com because its not as good as Nirvana and has other issues, but I think it does that one thing well.
10 Posted by Proximo on 27 May, 2010 06:58 PM
@JonC
I have used www.getitdoneapp.com as well as hundreds of others. ( Seems that way at least )
There is a major flaw on how Projects are implemented with www.getitdoneapp.com that I won't bother covering here. I am a paid subscriber to their service and own the iPhone app. ( Not sure how long my account has before it expires )
Nirvana is a much better implementation over all but needs some tweaks to make certain things work better. I know with the continual feed back from this community that Nirvana will become better and better.
11 Posted by Lasse on 27 May, 2010 07:18 PM
@Markus: I'm afraid that currently there's no elegant solution to this problem. But I'm positive there will be one in the near future. As has been said in several other threads about the Next list, this is something the devs are working on.
In any case, here are my thoughts about the subject: All true GTD apps I've used so far treated Next as the list where all active tasks are displayed. Unfortunately, if a project is active then all its tasks are considered active too, even though - as you've pointed out - that doesn't make sense. After all, what's active about a task that I won't be able to work on before sometime in the fall? (As a side note: I think the best description for such a task's state would be "queued".) To me this type of Next list is the major flaw of the GTD apps I've used. The reason I gave up on GTD the first time I tried it was because I didn't want to go through my (rather long) Next list every day. I wanted to be able to review all my tasks once a week, decide which ones to work on during the week, put them all in a common list and then only refer to that list when it's time to create my Today list. To me that's what a Next list should be about, but that's not how it currently works in Nirvana. There's a way to work around this, however, and that is to assign tags (like tw for 'this week'). That way you can turn a long Next list into a relatively short This Week list. As of now, this is not a very elegant solution because you have to open every single task you want to tag. But I'm hoping that the ability to select multiple tasks, which is coming soon, will include the ability to assign tags to multiple tasks in one go. The other problem with this workaround is that it doesn't change the fact you can't order all tasks because it's not a unified list. But this too will change.
So to sum it up, here's what will solve this problem at some point in the future:
1. Multiple task select (incl. tagging)
2. a unified Next list
3. smart lists
As for making single tasks inactive: That's how Things started doing it a short while ago. Now you can assign project tasks to any list you wish (Scheduled, Someday) without having them lose their association to the project. While I like this solution, I'm fine with just using tags (provided that using tag is convenient, which it isn't - yet!).
12 Posted by JonC on 27 May, 2010 08:07 PM
@Proximo, I agree - getitdoneapp was fatally flawed, I just liked how they grouped the tasks within the project. Didn't buy it and won't.
13 Posted by Lasse on 28 May, 2010 11:08 AM
One more thought about active and inactive tasks: I don't really use Someday as a "someday maybe" list (and from what I've read in the forum, others don't either). I also use Someday for tasks that I will do but that don't need to be done anytime soon (i.e. tasks that are "someday" but not "maybe", or in other words "someday definitely") and that I therefore don't want in Next because I don't want them on my radar. If there was a way to make tasks active or inactive, then that could be a way to differentiate between tasks in Someday that are "definitely" and those that are "maybe".
14 Posted by haeffb on 28 May, 2010 12:51 PM
Please, please, please! Divide the project lists into Today, Next and Someday/Inactive/Future Tasks.
Support Staff 15 Posted by Elbert McLaughlin on 28 May, 2010 02:35 PM
Thanks all for another great discussion. We're working on solutions to these issues as I write this. Some great changes are in the works and will be phased into the app over the coming weeks.
16 Posted by Proximo on 28 May, 2010 07:49 PM
@Lasse,
In the end you must do what works for you but I don't follow the logic.
My Next List has task that I decided are actionable and must be done as soon as possible. They don't require due dates unless they are truly due on a particular date.
The Someday list in Nirvana is your Someday/Maybe list but most apps don't name it that way to keep it simple. The Someday list should contain task that I MAY want to do Someday but they are NOT actionable. I don't NEED to do them.
If 10 years passed with a task in the Someday list, it would not matter because they are not Actionable. You can keep them in there as long as you like until one of two things happen. You decide it's now Actionable and move it to the Next List or you decide it's not something you will ever do and delete it. There is nothing definitely about a Someday task. That is the purpose of the Someday list in GTD.
Task that are "Someday definitely" are simply Next Actions. Nothing is forcing you to put a due date on them, so it does not matter how long they remain in the Next List.
Making task Active vs. Inactive is confusing and departs from the GTD Methodology because Inactive task are designed to go in the Someday list while Active task go in the Next List.
How you implement GTD is up to you but I wanted to at least mention my thoughts on it. :-)
17 Posted by Terminado on 29 May, 2010 06:27 AM
Proximo, what are you thoughts on active vs. inactive projects both residing in the projects view? To be consistent, shouldn't inactive projects go in Someday?
btw, I use Someday as Someday/Maybe and use it for everything I might want to do (haven't decided either way) including projects. It's where I put "ideas" until I decide what to do with them. Is that correct usage in the gtd schema?
18 Posted by Proximo on 29 May, 2010 01:09 PM
@Terminado
You are correct.
I put anything that I may want to do someday in the someday list.
The Someday list is also the Maybe list. Most GTD applications
shorten the name to save space.
Inactive Projects:
The way I use inactive projects is simply to hide the projects that
are actioable from the left navi so that I show the ones I am working
on now.
Just like the Today list gives me focus on my task, the active
projects on the left navi shows the projects that I am focused on.
The inactive projects are still actionable but mow they are filtered
on the left navi to only show what i am currently focused on.
If any project is not actionable and it's really something I may want
to do one day but I am not sure if I can or will. It goes in the
someday list as it should.
GTD is simple to me. If I know I must do something it's actionable
and if it's something that I would like to do but don't have to do,
it's a someday item.
KISS
Inactive projects is not part of the GTD methodology and it's more of
a simple way to clean up the left navi to show what you are focused on.
The Next List and Projects list simply hold actionable task that must
be done and it does not matter if it's something you may not work on
soon. It's still actionable and belongs in these list.
I honestly think that David Allen complicated things with his second
book to justify selling another. I read the book twice already and he
is starting to confuse people in my opinion. :-)
19 Posted by Terminado on 29 May, 2010 09:55 PM
Thanks, Proximo. I will make that adjustment re inactive projects: they aren't projects unless I've decided to do them; they aren't "active" unless I'm working on them.
20 Posted by Lasse on 31 May, 2010 12:02 AM
@Proximo,
let's see if I can explain the logic. But let me first say something about "confusion". I think one reason people tend to get confused about GTD is because 1) DA chose unfortunate names for some of his concepts and 2) most apps aren't consistent in the way they try to make GTD work in a digital world.
Take Someday Maybe: Tasks have all kinds of properties, for example certainty ("maybe", "definitely") and time ("soon", "someday"). If I need to do a task, its certainty is "definitely" and therefore it doesn't belong in Someday Maybe (even if it is due "someday") because this list is only about certainty not about time - even though the title suggests otherwise. In other words, a "someday" task can belong in Next or in Someday Maybe depending on its certainty while a "maybe" task always belongs in Someday Maybe, no matter whether it is due someday or next week. That's why Someday Maybe is a misnomer. It's really only a Maybe list - and I think that's what it should be named (at least if you don't want to call it Someday Maybe).
As for Next, the name implies that this list contains tasks that I want to tackle next. But in truth it contains all actionable tasks no matter whether I plan to work on them next week or in half a year or at a point in time that I'm not yet able to define. So again, this list categorizes tasks by certainty even though the name implies that this list is about time.
As you mentioned, "active" vs. "inactive" is not part of the GTD methodology. However, many apps include it because it helps to focus on some things. As you said yourself, making a project that you're not working on now (but will work on later) inactive is convenient because it keeps it out of your view and keeps your focus on things you are currently working on (or have decided to work on shortly). But why should this be limited to projects? This is where in my opinion consistency comes in. Either you decide to filter by time (for example "now/soon/this week" vs. "later"), or you don't. If you don't, then every actionable task (both single action and project-related) belongs in Next, no matter if you can work on it now or not. In that case Next is simply the bucket where you dump every actionable task. OR you do filter by time, which means you can decide to keep only those tasks in Next which you're planning to work on "now" (as in "this week" or "this month") irrespective of whether it is project-related or a single action item.
In previous threads users have expressed a desire to be able to filter project-related tasks by time (for example "Next Tasks" and "Tasks" or "Next Actions" and "Future Tasks", etc. See: http://help.nirvanahq.com/discussions/problems/11-next-as-next-acti...). I'm all for this. But why should this be restricted to project-related tasks? One argument could be that sometimes projects tend to be sequential and you can't work on B before finishing A. But the same can be true for single action items: For example I might decide to "Order a table at Giovanni's when Tobi finishes dissertation", and "Buy latex pacifiers" (due when my daughter grows teeth). I don't know when Tobi will finish his dissertation and I don't know when my daughter will grow teeth. I will do both tasks but don't need either of them on my radar (because I can't or don't need to work on them anytime soon). For these tasks I'd love to have a simple way to get them out of my view (i.e. out of Next until I can work on them). Now, if you're strict about GTD these tasks don't belong in the Someday Maybe list, because they're "definitely" and not "maybe". But moving them there could be a simple way to reduce the size of the Next list. However, there are better solutions: For example, assigning tags like "this week" to those tasks you want to get done this week and then filtering Next accordingly, or making some tasks inactive (because, while they are actionable, they can't be acted on soon and therefore are inactive), or filtering tasks in the same way that has been suggested for projects (e.g. "Next Actions" and "Future Tasks").
Let me finish this by using an analogy: I store all the clothes I might want to wear someday (e.g. when I lose weight) in the basement (Maybe list). In my closet I keep all the clothes that fit me and that I will wear sooner or later (unfiltered Next list, i.e. all actionable tasks). But for my business trip next week, I pack only those things that I plan to wear during that week. There's no need to take everything along because I know I'm not going to wear the winter coat in June. That's why I go through my stuff on Sunday and decide what to put in this week's suitcase (filtered Next list). That way it's much easier to decide each morning what to wear Today than if I had to go through all of my clothes - even those that I wouldn't wear anyway. In other words, I want a way to pack a light suitcase! :)
21 Posted by Lasse on 31 May, 2010 12:27 AM
Let me clarify one more thing: I guess you could say that ordering a table at Giovanni's belongs into Maybe because I don't need to do it but only want to do it someday (when the dissertation is done). But even if that were true in this case, I have many work related tasks (single action items) that fit this description. I will do them (because I need to) even though I might not know when. Therefore I wouldn't want them on my Next list for this week but they don't belong in Maybe either.
22 Posted by Proximo on 01 Jun, 2010 01:57 PM
@Lasse,
First let me say that I understand what you are saying and if it's working for you, that is great.
GTD does not need to be implemented 100% for it to work for you and it's legal to stray from the methodology in order to make it work best for you. I honestly mean that.
I personally keep GTD simple because it makes me productive. The Next List is for actionable task regardless of time and the Someday list for anything that I may want to do someday but it's not actionable. That's it.
This is how DA describes the methodology and it works for me as is. If anyone feels they need to tweak it or take it a different direction to make them productive, that is what they should do and it's perfectly fine.
If I can't explain GTD to a new person in a simple way, they probably would not use it thinking it's too difficult. I am the same way and therefore I keep GTD simple and follow the methodology as DA describes it. It works for me but it does not mean that it will work for everyone. This still does not mean that I implement 100% of GTD but I do know I apply most of it.
If I have an Actionable task, it goes in the Next List. I decide on the Time, Energy and Context of this task when I am going through my Next list to determine what I want to work on next. I don't make it any harder than that and it works as described by DA.
The someday list is something I look at during my Weekly Reviews only because there is nothing there that is actionable or that I have to do. Everything in that list is something that I would like to do someday/maybe.
Someday refers to the fact that these task may never be done and it won't mater because they are NOT actionable. (Must Do's)
Maybe refers to task that may never be done and it won't mater because they are NOT actionable. (Must Do's)
During the weekly reviews I may decide to remove/delete a task from my someday/maybe list because I don't feel it's something I will ever get too or it's not something I may want to do anymore.
I can also make a someday/maybe task a Next Action if I feel this is something that is now a must do for me.
Must do does not mean in 1 day, 1 week, 1 year, etc. The purpose of GTD is to use an approach for identifying task that you must get done and allow you to decide what is the right task to do at the moment. You don't judge a task by how long it will be before you think you can get to it. It's either Actionable or not. How long it takes for you to get to that task depends on Time, Energy, Context and Priority which is something you dynamically do.
Again, this is my opinion and nothing works for everyone. Adjust and flex GTD methodology to your needs and make sure it works for you.
Although we may have different approaches to how we get things done, I always feel that I learn something from you and others.
Thanks for sharing as always.
23 Posted by Lasse on 02 Jun, 2010 03:15 PM
@Proximo,
I think we're really on the same page here. Many users (including you and me) would like to be able to move only certain actionable tasks (versus all tasks) from projects to Next to keep Next from becoming cluttered. Personally, I like to filter out certain actionable single action tasks from Next as well - as I already can thanks to tags. So there's no need to introduce a new function for this.
But if there will be a way to filter out tasks from next, I think it would be more consistent (and therefore in a way simpler) to extend this capability to single tasks as well and not only to projects, because either Next is a list of all the tasks you want to focus on (i.e. a focus list) OR it's a list of all actionable items. If you can only filter project-related tasks, though, then Next will be a list of some actionable project-related tasks but all single action tasks (and thus neither a true focus list nor a bucket for all actionable tasks). Having said that, I'm fine with whatever the devs decide on whether it be a focus list, a bucket or a "half breed" :) because Nirvana manages to be wonderfully simple yet flexible enough for me to adjust it to my needs.
24 Posted by Proximo on 02 Jun, 2010 08:18 PM
@Lasse,
I agree with you on the Next list and I believe it's something they will address in one form or the other.
You are a sharp cookie and I always appreciate reading your post. I am a sharp like a marble so I need to be open minded. :-)
I am also no Rocket Surgeon either.
25 Posted by Lasse on 02 Jun, 2010 09:18 PM
@Proximo,
who needs rocket surgeons when we've got brain scientists like you! :)
Support Staff 26 Posted by Elbert McLaughlin on 02 Jun, 2010 09:29 PM
slap slap
David McLaughlin closed this discussion on 04 Feb, 2011 01:42 AM.