"next" list is not a real next action list
Could you please tell me what are your plans regarding the "next" list if any? Are you going to add functionality so that it would show only real next actions instead of all actions? Or are you going to rename it to "all actions"?
The way it currently works is that it shows either all actions
or only one action per project.
The problem with showing all actions is that some of them won't be
real next actions because they are sequential.
The problem with one action per project is that if you have
multiple next actions(parallel) with different contexts, time,
energy etc. in a project then you're going to miss them in "next"
list.
We obviously need to select which actions are really next actions
in project view. That would solve the issue. Or rename "next" to
"all actions" and "focus" to "next actions" that would solve the
issues too.
Current workarounds are:
Use "Later" list for actions that aren't real next actions.
Ignore "next" list name and use it as "all actions" list and ignore
"focus" list name and use it as "next actions"
Add tag !NEXT to real next actions and sort "next" list by this tag
all the time
So there are lots of way around this and this not really a top
priority issue however I just want to know if developers
acknowledge this issue and what are they going to do about it so
that I can relax and achieve nirvana while using
workarounds/hacks.
Thanks.
Showing the most recent page of comments. View the first page
32 Posted by freecloud.may on 23 Apr, 2011 12:38 AM
--------------------------------quote
Maybe if they changed the Later list to look more like the Next or Someday list where things are separated by "Standalone" and "Project" it would be more useful as an actual list. For now, I like it as a way to prioritize project tasks.
This probably should be coming in an update. Why would they have an organized list by project and standalone for Focus, Next, & Someday, but not Later? That doesn't make much sense to me. You'd think all list views should have a similar formatting.
______________________________
It's not going to come in update, in fact it clearly states in account settings that "Later" list should not be used and is going to be removed.
Here is a suggestion:
instead of making the useless "Later" view a bit more usefull (bad idea) make the "Review" view.
Review would list all projects, active, inactive and someday. The difference between the "Next" view would be that the "Review" view would list all actions related to every project. So for example you would be able to quickly see which projects have no next actions, which projects are waiting for something, which projects have no next actions but have a scheduled next action and so on.
The difference between the "Projects" view would be that instead of seeing only project names and having to click through every project you would see all projects with all actions. It could to be also used as a catch all/safety net kind of view so that nothing falls through the cracks. It could be very fast way of doing a quick scan across all projects and actions.
The "Later" list is useless :)
33 Posted by freecloud.may on 23 Apr, 2011 11:32 PM
Btw here is an idea for naming "not next actions" :
Inactive actions
34 Posted by Proximo on 26 Apr, 2011 07:26 PM
@freecloud.may
Not next actions in GTD are either trashed or placed in the Someday List.
Inactive actions = Someday/Maybe
When looking at a Project, the task that are not your current Next Actions are still Actionable. In it's simplest form, a Project has one Next Action and all other task are Actionable until the Next Action is completed. At this point the next task in the sequential list will move up to become the new Next Action.
You can complicate things by talking about Parallel task inside a project that would suggest you can have more than one Next Action but the principle is still the same.
35 Posted by haeffb on 26 Apr, 2011 07:42 PM
No, no, no.
"When looking at a Project, the task that are not your current Next Actions are still Actionable."
There may be tasks in my Project that are NOT actionable until some other project task is completed. They will be actionable someday, but they're not today.
"Get Three Quotes from Body Shops" "Send Quotes to Insurance Company"
Can't send the quotes until I've gotten the quotes, and sending the quotes is not an actionable task until that point.
36 Posted by Jeff Maynes on 26 Apr, 2011 09:07 PM
I rather like the suggestion, made by freecloud.may, of simply having "next" as a toggle. I use the "later" list as a stop-gap here, so that I can manually pick the tasks I want on the next list. This gives me a "unified" next list.
The advantage of doing it manually is that I can be clear when I've got parallel vs sequential tasks, since it's up to me whether I list just 1, or 2(+) tasks as next actions for a project. This avoids any worries about having to specify projects as sequential or parallel (which I think, like many others, is fairly useless).
The downside is that it does not automatically give me my next actions in the way that the drilldown does now. After checking my next action, I'd have to go back into my project, and select the next one. Of course, one could keep this an option by allowing for manual marking of next via a simple toggle and then permit the drilldown on those tasks as an option.
So a project might have three task types: active, scheduled, someday. Next would then just be a toggle on the list of active actions (in the same way "focus" is). Later could then be excised.
37 Posted by freecloud.may on 26 Apr, 2011 11:55 PM
Proximo,
Inactive actions are closer to project support material than to Someday. They should be done to complete the project but they also can't be done at the moment (until some other actions are done). I can define them with natural planning model and set contexts and time, energ and etc.
Also I can actually keep them in a separate tool like Evernote (or even project notes in Nirvana) and keep only next actions in Nirvana but it's going to makes things a lot harder to manage because I will have to add contexts and time and etc. again and so on
Here is an example
modify upload script for images
generate description
generate namelist
upload files
document generate namelist
document generate description
preview results
choose results and save in evernote
I know all actions that have to be done and don't want to think about what's next. But not all should go to "Next" list right away.
I could keep every project as sequential of course with only one next action but in this example I have an action
which is high energy, takes 1hr
and others like
which is low energy, takes 10 min
I want to have all next actions in the "Next" list so that I can do them all depending on my current situation.
Sure I can keep only 1 next action per project like "modify upload script for images" in this example, but then when I'm low in energy and time I'm going to miss other possible actions.
There are other examples where actions require different contexts(instead of just time, energy) too and I don't want to miss such actions either.
38 Posted by Proximo on 27 Apr, 2011 09:45 PM
@freecloud.may
What you are calling Inactive Actions are actually Actionable. All task in a Project are Actionable or they would not be listed as a task of the project. You have 1 or more Next Actions that need to be done and then the other task which are all Actionable will eventually become Next Actions.
GTD is simple but people make it more difficult than it really is. I think you are just using the wrong wording which is confusing me because the only task in GTD that are not actionable or inactive would be Someday task or Reference material.
If you look at a Project from it's simplest form again, you can see how simple this is. A Project may have 10 task but only one of them is a Next Action. The other 9 are listed in sequential order. The other 9 task are Actionable but not THE Next Action.
When you complete the Next Action of that Project the next task in the sequential order will become the Next Action. You don't complete projects in GTD, you simply complete the Next Action that moves it forward. All the task in a Project will eventually be Next Actions until there are no more task to complete and THEN the Project is finished.
The Later list is not GTD. I know some people are using it as a work around, but it can confuse lots of new comers. There is no such thing as a "Later" list in GTD. Every task in a Project that is not currently your Next Action will by default need to be done Later. All of the task are still Actionable but just not the Next Action.
"I have a headache"
I really wish Nirvana would have never added the "Later" list. This was one of the first down falls to a true GTD application. GRRRRRR.
We can all agree that the Next List needs to be revamped. The "Unified Next List" was the solution but it was not implemented when Nirvana 2.0 Preview was launched.
I honestly believe that fixing the Next list should be the TOP Priority because everything else relies on the foundation of doing this correctly.
39 Posted by freecloud.may on 27 Apr, 2011 11:34 PM
Well maybe I'm using the wrong wording. English isn't my native language :)
Yes each project does indeed have only one true next action you can do at any given time, but it doesn't mean each project has only 1 next action option to choose from, it might have multiple next action options for different contexts
40 Posted by ssavan01 on 29 Apr, 2011 04:51 AM
Freecloud,
I understand your issue with "Sequential Actions" vs. "Parallel Actions". A sequential action is NOT a "next" action until the action before it is completed. Whereas a parallel action IS always a next action because it can be completed in any order regardless of other actions preceding or following it (example: a project with 5 parallel actions are all NEXT actions, whereas a sequential project with 5 actions only has 1 NEXT action). Nirvana is really only capable of handling parallel actions in my opinion (at least at this point). The reason is that when you look at your next action contexts you will see all actions - sequential & parallel, but the only actionable items would be the FIRST sequential action.
Your right that in the case of sequential actions, you should keep those in Project Support Material until your ready to move them into Nirvana. While they are in Project Support they are not used as reminders because there is no use in being reminded of actions you can't do. Again, this is functionality that Nirvana can hopefully integrate in the future. OmniFocus is way ahead in a lot of these areas (not as beautiful of an interface though). David Allen discusses this in detail in one his podcasts. Your weekly review is when you will catch up and view your project support for any actual next actions to add to your action lists.
One thing I heard David Allen say that really resonated with me is that he rarely does sequential project planning (listing all the actions that will occur after completing the next immediate action). He says that very often his projects have one next action only (never more than few). Action lists are meant to JUMPSTART projects not provide detailed project plans. People are completely overcomplicating GTD action lists by creating step-by-step sequential project actions that really aren't going to improve the scope of the project.
Remember, determine the outcome of the project and the next immediate action that will drive that project forward. No need to lay out each step in Nirvana. If you feel you'd like to dive into this kind of thinking ( and I often will) put it in Project Support Material. This will keep your action lists clean with only relevant next actions.
I hope that helped.
41 Posted by freecloud.may on 29 Apr, 2011 11:52 AM
ssavan01, thanks for the reply. Yeah I agree. Most of the time I just keep a "brain bookmark" to jumpstart the project where I left off.
However I also have many complicated projects where it doesn't work because I don't know/remember the process and they are often repeating too. It's very nice to write the process down once it's done and then when I want to do it again (maybe after a couple of months) I don't have to puzzle it out again.
The problem with keeping sequential actions in Nirvana project notes is that it's too slow and unconvinient to move them out of notes and into actions and setting contexts and so on. So I keep such actions as Waiting for - other actions as a workaround for now
So I really need this sequential and parallel granularity because I don't keep anything in my head (as much as possible of course).
Any information which is important and related to a project is ALWAYS written down in project support files so I don't have to rely on remembering anything. Yeah it takes time to write it down and then I have to find it (quick with evernote) and read it but it's worth it. Otherwise I would have to rethink things a lot. My mental RAM is not enough anyway if the project is very complicated.
Actually even sequential granularity is not enough for me sometimes and even have support material for some actions and not just projects! :)
A really simple example I have currently:
Action - generate empty description.
It's too vague for me, sure I can figure it out but it's much better to have support for material for those things since I have lots and lots of unrelated stuff and so on. And it's too small to be a project also (takes 2 minutes to get done)
Support material:
"read generate empty description script, it's simple.
set description.txt path in this script
set the number of lines you need -2
run it"
So even some actions are not granular enough, it depends on what you do and how often
Sure I don't need this granularity for "buy bananas" errand even though it takes a lot more steps :)
42 Posted by freecloud.may on 02 May, 2011 05:25 AM
I've changed my mind about keeping sequential actions in Nirvana project notes. While it's still not as convinient as I would like to it actually seems to work rather well in practice.
I actually don't need to move those actions in and out of notes as often as I expected to. And the checklist feature is very useful for such notes.
I've actually stopped adding any sequential(not currently actionable) actions to projects as actions and instead started adding them to projects notes now. This keeps "Next" and all other lists clean and correct without any workarounds and additional tags and etc. And I can have both parallel and sequential actions as next actions in any/all project aswell and as many as need (I use grouped by project "Next" view, unified view would work too but I don't like how it randomly sorts actions).
So I'm just going to use notes in Nirvana a lot more for keeping actual actions aswell as action support material and if the process is reocurring and I want to save it for future reference I will just save it in Evernote once it's done as an archived project support material
I'm interested to see if this approach would work well for others who want to have multiple next actions per project (parallel and sequential).
But anyway I still think that simply having "next" as a toggle would be a better solution, just wanted to post what I do at the moment because I find it to be a good alternative
43 Posted by Proximo on 03 May, 2011 06:26 PM
@freecloud.may
Just got back from Vacation. :-)
I wanted to also agree with you that not all projects have one Next Action. This is why used the wording "In it's simplest form".
Some Projects have a combination of Sequential and Parallel task and there is talk about supporting this down the road.
44 Posted by haeffb on 17 May, 2011 04:23 PM
As a followup, here's a pair of example images showing how to get to the true Nirvana of a UNL with projects that are comprised of both sequential and parallel tasks. First using Waiting For "other tasks" and second using the Later list.
Both examples allow you to specify which of a project's tasks show up in the Next list, both are somewhat kludgy workarounds.
FWIW, I think Elbert & Co. are headed in the wrong direction with the "Parallel/Sequential" distinction for projects. Projects are not one or the other. They're both.
45 Posted by ryan.h.miller on 17 May, 2011 04:48 PM
I completely agree that projects are almost always both sequential and parallel. The better way of doing this is assigning TASKS as sequential or parallel instead.
You can think of this like the way Microsoft Project works. Some tasks have predecessors that must complete before you can start a given task (sequential). Other tasks can happen at any time (parallel) and have no predecessor.
Given the UI of Nirvana, I'm not sure how you'd accomplish that though.
The way I use it has not changed since the integration of the universal next list. I like to view my tasks by project and only make the ones visible (in the next list) that are truly actionable (i.e. next in the sequence or parallel). If they must wait for a preceding task to complete I either put them in Someday or drag them to the bottom of the list. I only allow myself to see the top 3 in my next view so this seems to work for me.
46 Posted by haeffb on 17 May, 2011 07:52 PM
Hmmm... For some reason I didn't think of using Someday, but it would function the same as Later and Waiting For from a project perspective. Either way, I can't help but feel that @Proximo is still going to be disappointed with me for having Someday or Later tasks in my projects. :)
47 Posted by Proximo on 19 May, 2011 11:55 AM
We have a UNL now.
Did this change how you do things now?
48 Posted by ryan.h.miller on 19 May, 2011 01:03 PM
Hi Proximo, no I don't like the UNL because my projects have both sequential AND parallel tasks in them. Plus, I like having my Next list broken up by project. Seems less cluttered to me that way.
So I still do what I always have done which is prioritize/sort based on order in the list (those at the top of the list are either higher in priority or a first step to a task below it). Or I put them in Someday if I know it will be awhile before I get to them.
Then my next list behaves as I want. I only show the top 3 items in any project, so it is not cluttered, but I am able to work on both parallel and sequential tasks in any given project.
For me, I also like the forward visibility of having more than one thing viewable to me at once as well. Now I don't claim to be using true GTD either. But my system works for me and Nirvana (even before the UNL) servers me almost perfectly.
49 Posted by Proximo on 19 May, 2011 03:48 PM
Thanks for sharing Ryan.
There is more than one way to do something and doing what works is what matters. It's nice that we have several options on how we want Nirvana to work without making it bloated and complicated.
50 Posted by freecloud.may on 19 May, 2011 05:53 PM
I actually stopped using Nirvana for now at least because I prefer to have full control over what is a next action and what is not and where I want to place that information. Workarounds still slowed me down. But I will keep an eye on Nirvana development. I think it's probably the best gtd dedicated WEB app available at the moment, oh and I enjoyed using it, it's not like I had to stop because it was too painful or something :)
I also wouldn't mind coming back to Nirvana if the final version would provide more flexibility with next actions. Who knows...? That and also filtering with NOT operator wouldn't hurt! :)
Other than that Nirvana team got everything else perfect IMO