Next category
Galex Yen
via web
I don't quite get the next category. I'm rather project centric and would like a view that allows me to see what items I have to work on next within my active projects. It seems I can drag tasks into the next category, but then they are no longer associated with the project. The show projects button in next isn't very useful because it just shows everything.
Ideally, I would like a way to declare dependencies between tasks in my project so that when I go to the next view, I see a list of the tasks I have dragged into the next category along with tasks within projects that have no dependencies on active tasks.
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2 Posted by Proximo on 21 Apr, 2010 08:49 PM
@Galex Yen,
First I want to make sure you understand that Nirvana is designed around GTD (Getting Things Done). I am not sure if you are currently practicing GTD but based on your question, it seems that you may be new to GTD.
Well, we are here to help no matter what. So if you are new to GTD, we welcome you and will point you to some great information to dive in deeper.
For now, let me see if I can clear things up a little for you.
In GTD:
"Next" is a list of single task that you determined need action by you. These task should clearly define what needs to be done next, in order to complete them.
Anything that requires more than one single task to complete is considered a Project. So if you have something to do that requires 2 or more steps, it's a project in GTD. Each of these Project task should also clearly identify what needs to happen next in order to move that Project forward.
In GTD, you can't complete Projects, but the next action that moves the Project forward. When you have completed all the task of the Project, then the project is complete.
When looking at the Next list, you have the option to also show your Projects with their related task. This view allows you to see everything in your life that needs to get done. Single task and Project task.
Any task that requires someone else to complete or is waiting on something before it can be completed, goes in the "Waiting for" list.
Any task that is not actionable at this time or you are not sure if you will ever get to it, will go in the "Someday List".
This simply explains the different list and does not explain how GTD works in any way. If you would like some good resources on GTD, I can provide some links for you. If you find GTD to be very applicable to your life, I would recommend buying the 2 books by David Allen on GTD.
If you have any questions please let us know and let me know if you would like links to some resources that can get you started in GTD.
Thanks
3 Posted by Jody on 27 Apr, 2010 01:25 AM
@Galex Yen -
I'm with you - does anyone have a workable solution for tasks disappearing from projects when you move them to next? Seems weird to do it that way. I have LOTS of projects and it seems like this system is relying heavily on the user remembering that they've completed the previous task or that there is a next task to complete.
While I find TD to be a pain to use (but the best I can find), I am oh so very hopeful that Nirvana will catch up in functionality. The thing I like best about TD is that when I'm ready to check off a task, I can drill into the project and assign the "next" action right then - from that very task. That helps me keep things moving forward. Anyone have a solution for this in Nirvana?
@Proximo - I'm confused, what did Galex Yen say to make you think that he doesn't use GTD? I'm a GTDer and I have the same concern. I still want to see the project in it's entirety sometimes.
4 Posted by Proximo on 27 Apr, 2010 01:45 AM
I think there is some confusion here. In Nirvana the Next list and
Priject list are two completely different list just like if you used
pencil and paper. You don't move or drag Project task into the Next
list. Project task stay with the Project and you simply show the
Projects in your Next list for ease of use. Project task show up in
the Next list under the Project header and you never have to guess
where it belongs. If you move a Project task into Today, it keeps
it's association with the Project by listing the Project link on the
task title.
If you Drag a Project task into the Next list, you are removing the
task from the actual Projects and you probably don't want to do this.
I will create a video to clear this up tomorrow but I hope you are
following what I am trying to explain.
I assumed that the way Nirvana works was understood and looked at the
initial question as a lack of understanding GTD. The confuision
sounds like Nirvana and not the understanding of GTD. I apologize for
that.
5 Posted by Proximo on 27 Apr, 2010 01:55 AM
Here is a quick "Silent" video I am making from home. Sorry I don't have a mic. at home but I hope I can show you how Project task should remain with the Project and not moved to the Next list manually.
6 Posted by Jody on 27 Apr, 2010 01:58 AM
@Proximo -
Ok, I can understand what you are saying but then, aren't you NOT using GTD if you are displaying more than just "next" items on your "next" list? Maybe I'm missing something. I've only been playing around in here for about an hour and came to the boards to figure out how to mark something as "next" without having to type "next" over and over again on every task that is a next action so I could filter. I used the stars in TD extensively so that I could identify only next actions. Since you are a former TDer... maybe you can elaborate on how you indicate a true next action vs a pending action?
I really like this UI so much better so if I can get past this hang-up, I'll start data entering my 300+ tasks tonight...
Help me, Proximo!!!! :)
7 Posted by Proximo on 27 Apr, 2010 02:09 AM
@Jody,
Here is the link to the video.
http://screencast.com/t/YTQ4MDRjNj
Forgive the lack of sound.
I completely understand what you are saying. Right now there is no option to filter out the Project task in the Next list. If you choose to show them, it shows all Project task but this is being reworked to do exactly what you are asking.
You will have the option to choose witch task of a Project show up in the Next list as intended. This way you only focus on all Next Actions without having to look at the task for a Project which are not yet Next Actions.
The Next list will show both, single Next Actions and Project Next Actions when this is corrected. Nirvana is in Beta and there are some discussion complaining about this very thing. Again, I apologize for not understanding the question at first.
I hope my video can show how single Next Actions and Project task are shown in the Next List together. You are correct in that the Project show all task and this is wrong, but like I mentioned above, this will be fixed.
I hope this helps.
I encourage your valuable input in making Nirvana better and just wanted to let you know that changes are in the works to fix this issue and several others we have found. The Nirvana developers are very friendly and want to iron things out before going live.
Thanks again.
8 Posted by Vin Thomas on 27 Apr, 2010 04:14 PM
I am not nearly as big of a GTD guru as Proximo, so I am with Galex Yen. I think moving the task to "Next" should NOT remove it from the project view. Besides, it seems there is still some affiliation with the project since it is shown when you go to the "Next" page.
Strange.
My initial thought is that the "Next" area would be for tasks that are next on the list, but not necessarily "Today" tasks.
On a related note, "Today" seems like a little bit of a strange term to have for that page since tasks can show up in there that are not due "Today". Seems like a more accurate title would be "Hotlist" or something.
It seems like the terminology used in the site is geared towards people who are entrenched in the GTD method. Might be a little confusing to those on the outside.
9 Posted by Proximo on 27 Apr, 2010 09:05 PM
Strap on because I am taking you down memory lane here.......
First let's get the obvious out of the way. The current implementation of showing ALL Project task in the Next List is not desirable. OK, now let's move on.
Next Actions section in Project View:
There is a current discussion on this very topic with some nice ideas and suggestions shared by the users. I will do my best to summarize how the current idea would work.
When looking at the Next List, you should not see all the Task associated with a Project for a good reason. The Next list should only show Next Actions. The current suggestion on how to resolve this is fairly simple.
In the Project View, have a section that is called "Next Actions" where you can drag your task into. The task dragged into this section are considered the Next Actions and will be the only Project task that show up in the Next List view.
Why multiple Next Actions?
Let's look at 3 scenarios in dealing with Projects.
Sequential Task: These Projects have a clearly defined Next Action that must be completed before any other task is worked on. This works for many people but really depends on the type of Projects they are involved in.
Parallel Task: These Projects have multiple task that can be worked on at the same time, making it possible to have more than one Next Action. You may be doing one task, while another person is doing a different task. One task does not require the other to be finished in a sequential order and therefore can both be worked at the same time. You can come up with many scenarios where multiple task could be worked on at the same time.
Both: Many people have a situation where a Project can have both Sequential task and Parallel task. Again, this depends on the type of work you do.
With this current idea, we can easily choose what task of a Project are considered Next Actions by dragging them into the Next Action section of the Project View. All other task will live in a section below this called "Future Task". Don't get hung up on the wording but just the concept.
When you look in your Next List and select to show Projects. You will see all the single Next Actions and below them you will see the different Project headers of all Active Projects. These Projects would only list the Next Actions associated with them and would hide all other task.
Dragging Project task into Next List:
Now that we understand the current idea on how to resolve this issue, let's look at a new perspective that is being suggested here.
The ability to drag a Project Task into the Next List to designate it as the Next Action.... Does this make sense?
Actually, it makes a lot of sense. Let's scrap the first idea for now and think with a clear perspective on this.
When looking at a task in the Today list, you can clearly distinguish the difference between a Single Next Action and a Next Action associated to a Project. The Project task will have the Project title in blue colored text which is an active link that jumps you back to the Projects view. Just keep this in mind for now.
Let's move on.
What if we had the ability to drag the Projects task into the Next List to designate them as Next Actions. When you look at the Next List, you will only see the Next Actions as before, but there will be NO Project headers to separate the task associated with Projects. Instead, each Project task shows a link to the associated Project just like in the Today list.
The benefits of this idea are several.
Your Next List is just one list showing all Next Actions without having to Hide/Show Project task.
You could easily sort the Project task as you would single Next Action allowing you to place these task higher on the list for your review. Sorting task is a visual way of describing it's importance or priority to you. The top most Next Action would be one of my highest priorities based on Context, Time and Energy.
You would keep the UI design the same between list and now task inside the Today list work the same as in the Next List. Currently only when a task is in the Today list would it display the associated Project link. This will no longer be the case.
You could support Sequential Projects, Parallel Projects or a combination of both by simply dragging as many task as you wish from your Project to the Next List.
In the Project view, the task that are currently considered Next Actions can have a visual icon such as a Star.
The more I think about this new idea, the more I like it. You still have the separate Project List that gives you all the Project details you will require, but it unifies and simplifies the Next List by making it one simple list that shows all Next Actions to include Projects.
This is why everyone's input is so valuable here. I was all for the previous idea and it will still work, but thinking about this new approach I can honestly say that I like it much better.
Keeping the UI simple and functional is the key and I think this new idea does just that. It's intuitive to drag things around in Nirvana, so why not expand on that global idea by dragging your Project task into the Next list. Changing the way Project task are listed in the Next list as suggested here would keep the UI flow more in line with the entire site.
There you have it folks. I started off trying to explain how things work now and how they will be improved on, but realized how much better Nirvana could be if tweaked in this way.
I suspect that Elbert or Chritiane will give us their thoughts on this and I look forward to others comments.
In closing, I would like to say this.
GTD is not about how much you know about it or understand it. It's a Methodology that can be implemented in different ways for different people. Sharing how we use GTD is the important thing and we can always learn from each other.
Nirvana is designed for GTD and has some core elements that are important. Many companies have implemented a GTD system in various ways. Some good and some bad but there is no official UI that governs how GTD software can be implemented. You can never be afraid to innovate and do things differently than what has been done before as long as it accomplishes the goal. To provide a simple GTD system that works with you and not against you.
The individual is what makes GTD work and not the software. The software we use should aid us in the implementation of GTD and nothing more.
Thanks
10 Posted by Proximo on 27 Apr, 2010 09:28 PM
@Vin,
About the Today list. I agree with what you are saying but I see a benefit of calling it Today and not Hotlist.
At the end of the day, GTD is about getting things done and part of this process is determining what you will work on Today. When looking at the Today list I can see a focused list of task that I have committed on working on Today.
They don't have to be due that day for me to work on them. Having them show up in the Today list is simply what I am focused on. This is why when I assign a due date to a task, I try my best to choose how many days BEFORE the due date they should show up in my Today list. I need some time to work on them in order to make the due date.
I try not to add too many task in my Today list in order to get the sense of completion when I finish the task. This allows me to search my Next List with a sense of accomplishment to add the next task I will work on for the day. You don't always complete them on that day because some task simply take several days of work, but you know what your focus is.
It's a play on words, but I simply prefer "Today". :-)
11 Posted by Jody on 28 Apr, 2010 06:12 PM
@Proximo - This would be great and completely in line with what i was thinking. Even better would be a way to just mark something as "next" - the dragging is a nice feature but gets cumbersome - particularly for those of us that like to use keyboard shortcuts for efficiency!
12 Posted by Proximo on 28 Apr, 2010 07:18 PM
@Jody
I think dragging and marking as Next directly on the task is the best way to do it. Sometimes dragging is intuitive and at other times it's not. Just depends.
This could be a simple little icon that you activate on each task.
Good Idea.
13 Posted by Galex Yen on 29 Apr, 2010 02:26 PM
I think this has been a good discussion. I want to go back to my original post and talk about declaring dependencies. The whole point is to handle parallel, sequential and combinations in one system. What I'm really talking about is really a DAG (directly acyclical graph).
My take is that I should only have to rescan the tasks in my projects at two points in time. 1) When I'm modifying the project (adding or removing a task) or 2) during my weekly review.
The need to rescan my list of tasks within my project each time I complete a task in order to figure what to do next work I have to do over and over again. This effort is duplicated each time I want to figure what my next actions are. Not really "Mind Like Water" in my opinion.
When I plan my project, I think about the sequence and dependencies. I should be able to declare them I if choose to (this should be opt-in). Given this graph of dependencies, computing the set of tasks that are currently actionable is trivial (select all tasks that either do not have a dependency or who's dependent task is completed - if you are using a relational db back-end this will require only one self join). In this system, the next list will always automagically show me what are the next actionable items in my project without my intervention.
I want to go back to you point about software not doing GTD. I agree. But, we should utilize computers for what they are good for - doing repetitive mundane tasks that I would rather not.
Regards,
galex
14 Posted by Proximo on 29 Apr, 2010 02:38 PM
Very good point Galex,
Some people like automation and others limit it. If anything, the system needs to be flexible for everyone. I am big on automation but I don't want to complicate the system either. If it can be done, it needs to be done in a simplistic way.
I also plan out my Projects and have a very good idea in what order I will tackle things. It get's a little more involved when you have a combination of Parallel and Sequential task but automation can still work if designed correctly.
15 Posted by Elurven on 12 May, 2010 05:53 AM
The implementation used in the Next list in Nirvana is very similar to the one used in Things, where the projects are separate "sub-Next lists" in the Next list and in my opinion, it's simply confusing. Although GTD is very flexible, one of the basic ideas, is that once you have processed something and put it on a list, you should not have to think about it again (with the exception of the review of course). And a divided Next list, forces me to think through what I need to prioritize, every time that I look at the Next list.
I have also posted these thoughts and more under the following subject, pertaining to the Today list and how it is used: http://help.nirvanahq.com/discussions/suggestions/295-another-idea-...
16 Posted by Proximo on 12 May, 2010 01:09 PM
@Elurven,
I agree with you and created a new discussion that covers this in hopes of getting the proper attention.
http://help.nirvanahq.com/discussions/suggestions/314-unified-next-...
David McLaughlin closed this discussion on 02 Feb, 2011 06:11 PM.