"Someday" tasks shouldn't be starred
Hi,
I am seeing a practical difficulty and hence this suggestion. In my opinion, a task in "Someday" should not be allowed to "Star" it and brought to focus. It has to be moved to "Next" if it has to be starred.
Reason: I had a task in "Someday" (standalone project); I had to "Star" it to bring that to focus due to sudden requirement. It's now in my today's focus list. But I try to "Un"star things if I am not able to finish it today. (I review "Next" items everyday morning and bring a select few to "Focus" which is doable for the day) But in this scenario, if I "Un"star a task which is in "Someday", it gets lost and I don't get that to review for next day in the "Next" category! ...
So, if you don't allow a "Someday" task to become starred, my issue will be resolved. What do you think?
Thanks,
- Senthil
2 Posted by dafyren on 28 Dec, 2011 11:58 AM
I think that makes lot of sense. A someday task is per definition not actionable.
Maybe the star should be removed altogether like it is from inactive projects.
3 Posted by Lasse on 03 Jan, 2012 08:17 PM
While I agree, that the logic makes sense, I think that "starring" a Someday task should be possible. However, the task should automatically be moved to Next. That way you skip the steps of having to manually move it to Next, only to "star" it. Obviously "un-starring" should still keep the task in Next.
4 Posted by ksenthilnatarajan on 03 Jan, 2012 09:07 PM
Lasse's idea is great ! I like it.
5 Posted by dafyren on 03 Jan, 2012 09:18 PM
Great idea Lasse!
6 Posted by Proximo on 03 Jan, 2012 10:56 PM
I agree.
A Someday task should automatically move to the Next list if starred.
It can't be Someday and Actionable at the same time. @Lasse has the best approach to make things automatically do the right thing when you star the Someday task.
It's rare that @Lasse has a good point, so I am amazed that his idea is a solid one.
ROFL...... Just messing with you bro.
7 Posted by Lasse on 04 Jan, 2012 08:15 AM
HAHA! Well, I guess even a broken clock is right twice a day! ;-)
8 Posted by Folke on 04 Jan, 2012 12:59 PM
The idea is not bad and I am not opposed to it. There is a GTD logic to it, and It might save a click or two occasionally, if you can Star it straight into Next/Focus. But, if may expand the topic a bit, I am a bit concerned about the whole "star management and Focus" system in Nirvana.
Today, Nirvana has a very liberal approach - you can star more or less anything, no matter how crazy. That philosophy has its own beauty. It makes it possible for you as a user to keep whatever you want under your nose. It also makes the definition of the star and the focus list very clear - the star in fact has no other meaning than "keep under my nose because I say so". It is also a very simple system from an engineering point of view (for the Nirvana team). Today you can star Waiting tasks, projects, inactive projecs, tickler items (scheduled etc) whether it makes sense or not. I am perfectly happy with this state of affairs, and would be even more happy if the very litte "policing" that actually does take place today were totally removed.
Another beauty of this liberal system is its "consistency", as it were, with GTD. Please bear in mind that "Focus" is NOT a defined State in GTD. It is not part of core GTD at all. It is a useful and potentially powerful extra gadget, but it does NOT in any way replace or change or render useless any of the well-defined states of GTD: Next, Waiting etc. You can run your entire GTD system without a Focus list. GTD is very "complete" as it is. Typically, the things you want to see in Focus are also to be found on the Next list. Of course, there is nothing in GTD that forbids you to have all kinds of lists in addition to the core ones, and I really like having the Focus list and the stars, but I am just a bit wary of rushing into implementing additional "hard rules" for it, as long as the overall use of stars and the very definition of the Focus list, in Nirvana is in a haze.
I would prefer to see a consistent overall proposition. If the liberal approach is not acceptable to some, then I would like to see (and debate) a proposition that explains the intended exact GTD meaning of the star, and also covers all other restrictions to its availability and use (e.g for Waiting, for Projects etc).
9 Posted by Proximo on 04 Jan, 2012 09:58 PM
@Folke,
David Allen thinks the Focus list is a great idea that many of his clients use. The only difference is that they use a 3"X5" card instead of using a great app like Nirvana with a Focus list to accomplish the same thing in a more efficient and dynamic way.
David really needs to get up with technology and teach his clients a more efficient way of doing GTD with technology on their side.
Anyway, I am going to share a quote directly from David Allen on the use of the Focus List or should we say Hot List. I will also provide the site link to his article.
Nirvana is ahead of the game with many of the features they offer for GTD. I read both of David's books more than once and I always wonder how I would write the book from a technology perspective and not the caveman method he started with. :-)
David Allen:
"You need to review everything on your list as often as you need to, to feel comfortable about whatever you’re doing, and that you’re not missing something that you should be doing instead. As you start doing regularly weekly reviews, it shouldn’t take but a quick glance to know what you’re not doing. I’ve met some people who look thru their digital lists and make a 3×5 card hand-written list of the hottest items, and work from that during the day! Do whatever you need to do, to get to confidence about your choices."
http://goo.gl/MigxG
I work from my Focus list just like David Allen recommends.
Support Staff 10 Posted by Elbert McLaughlin on 04 Jan, 2012 11:00 PM
This is an interesting discussion. In N1 we "policed" starring such that clicking on a star always moved the item to Next. But we found that this confused some people. So we opted to change the behavior in N2. Incidentally, I find that being able to Star an item in Scheduled or Waiting is a nice way to bring it into my Focus list as something to review/follow up on without making the task "actionable" per se. To be consistent from a UI standpoint we left the ability to star items in Inbox and Someday. We kinda took our cues on this from gmail and other apps.
That said, we've batted the idea of making this a user pref to have Nirvana behave as it does currently OR to behave as it did in N1.
11 Posted by Proximo on 04 Jan, 2012 11:10 PM
Elbert,
I actually like using the Star to bring things into my Focus list and remind me to act on them. This works especially well for Waiting for task that someone else needs to take action on, but I can star during my weekly review in order to remind me to follow up with them.
In many cases the waiting for task is holding up the progress of a project and I need to stay on top of it.
Someday task however are not things that I consider actionable by anyone. During my weekly review, I scan my Someday list and decide if something becomes actionable or if I need to delete something. If I want to make something actionable, it would be nice to have it moved to the Next list automatically if I added the star to it. I also have the choice to drag it to the Next list because it's not something I want to focus on at the moment.
So I see the dilemma here.
I want the ability for starred items to show in the Focus list and get my attention to include Waiting for task, but I also don't think this rule is that great for all items such as Someday task.
Not sure if that makes sense. During a weekly review, something may catch my attention on the waiting for list that I want to follow up with the person on and I can quickly star it and have it front and center once I am done with my review. This is not so true for Someday task. Although I would usually move the Someday task to the Next list and not Star it, I think if I did Star it, it should no longer be a Someday item.
hmmmmm..
oh. By the way. Great to see you post on here Mr. Nirvana. :-) Happy New Year to you and the crew.
12 Posted by ksenthilnatarajan on 04 Jan, 2012 11:20 PM
Will that be feasible in N2 to add a "prompt" dialog box asking something like... "Do you want to move this task to Next?" with a Yes / No button reply ...when someone tries to "Star" an task in "Someday"? What do you think ? Do you think that will fit in your N2 UI usability principles? Just a thought...
13 Posted by Folke on 05 Jan, 2012 10:23 AM
@Proximo (post 9): Yes, that is exacly how I use the Focus list, and that works for me.
@Elbert (post 10): I think you made the right decision taking it away - but if you decide to reintroduce it or make it optional, I can lve with that.
@Proximo (post 11): Yes, you see the dilemma - in "policing" - YOU may want to be able to do do one "crazy thing" (e.g. star a non-actionable Waiting task); somebody else wants to do another "crazy thing" (e.g. star a whole project) and so on. Personally, I almost never star anything but Next tasks, but I still like to have the "right" to do so, should I ever want to. If you or I would ever star a Someday item I am sure we would be doing so for a good reason.
Basically, all these kinds of "crazy starring" can be seen as a form of shortcut - they are an elliptic substitute for entering an additional temporary actionable task that specifies more clearly what is actually going to be DONE today. For example, if you star a Waiting task, you may actually MEAN "kick somebody's butt". If you star a Someday task you may MEAN "give it a little extra thought/review/assessment". And so on. By simply starring the non-actionable item you MEAN this without having to enter the extra actionable task (and without having to convert these two tasks into a project, which probably would be the "hard core" way to deal with it).
Suggestion: Maybe in the Focus list it would be appropriate to graphically highlight these non-Next tasks is some way? (As a warning to yourself, especially if you are a GTD beginner, that you cannot trust this task's description - the actual implicit Next action is something more concrete and simple, which you have not bothered to put down in writing. And also as a warning to yourself that if you unstar it, it will not withdraw to the Next list but to some other list. )
@Senthil (post 12): I am sorry if I have "stolen" your thread for a more convoluted issue than the one you originally raised. If "hard rules" are reintroduced in one form or another, then I think your suggestion is an obvious one to include.
If "hard rules" for the the stars are reintroduced, then I would be inclined to believe that the only really straightforward and logical way is to forbid starring across the board except for Next actions only. All other forms of starring - and explaining why you can do this but not that, probably gets too philosophical for new users.
But as I said before (post 8) I prefer an entirely liberal system for the stars and focus list - unpoliced, no hard rules, you star or unstar abslutely whatever you like, for whatever reason. And I would like to make it 100% liberal, which it is not today. I want to be able to unstar due and overdue tasks from focus as well - my focus is my business, nobody else's. If I choose to take away the star while leaving the due date intact, I have a good reason (perfectly valid GTD!) to do so, I assure you :)
14 Posted by Proximo on 05 Jan, 2012 05:17 PM
Great points from everyone. @Folke, I don't think this discussion strayed of topic because it's all related.
The only Non Actionable task that I add starts too is "Waiting for" task. You are correct in that it means I need to "kick somebody's butt" about it. :-)
I almost always drag a someday task to the Next list if it becomes something actionable. I can see the issue with simply adding the star to the Someday task and having it say in the Someday list. I am not sure what the best solution would be or if there needs to be a solution. Things work fine as they are, but you must be aware of how the star behaves when using it.