A Unified Next List that replaces Later
I've tried to come up with a Next list that would satisfy as many users as possible while staying simple and true to GTD - to the degree the user wants. Here's how I think it could work (please read until the end before judging):
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Keep the old Next list as an option (including the project headers and the option to display all or some project-related sub-tasks). I know this isn't in line with the definition of a Next Actions list but I remember from previous posts that some users want to be able to view all their tasks in Next (except for Someday and inactive projects). I'll call this the "All Actions" view.
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Add the option of a unified view (i.e. without headers). I'll call this the "Unified" view. This is basically a filtered view which can be accessed via an icon at the top of a list (a flag for example), just as is currently possible with the "due" icon when a list includes tasks with a due date.
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Make it an option to make either "All Actions" or "Unified" the default Next list view.
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Add an edit button to the top of every list (not only to Next but to all lists). Clicking this button (or accessing this function via shortcut) activates the "edit mode" and will reveal four icons next to every task: a) a star (which, when clicked, moves a task to Today)
b) a flag (which makes a task show up in the Unified view in Next - I'll explain this further down)
c) an upward-pointing arrow (which sends a task to the top of its list, i.e. the top of the project or the top of the single action list)
d) a chain link (which makes a task part of a sequence of tasks, as in sequential projects)
Additionally, when you're in edit mode you can create sub-tasks and nested projects by dragging. In edit mode, dragging to other lists is disabled. Instead dragging a task to the right makes it a sub-task to the task above it (thereby making the "parent task" a nested project). If an action is a sub-task already, then dragging it to the left moves it up to a higher hierarchical level (e.g. it becomes a regular project-task again). Making a single action task a sub-task will automatically turn the "parent" task into a project (and thereby remove it from the single actions list once you exit the edit mode). To exit the edit mode you click the edit button again and the symbols disappear (this way the star and the flag won't be constantly visible like the star is now, which I find a bit distracting). -
Make it an option to have the Unified list show either: a) all actionable single action tasks + flagged sub-tasks (i.e. those project tasks you want to see in the Unified view) or
b) only flagged tasks (whether sub-tasks or single actions). Option b is for those who like to keep "later actions" (which currently go in the Later list) from their view in the Next list. If you don't like this option because it's not pure GTD, don't activate it and you won't know it's there. Those who have been asking for this feature can use it. -
If no tasks are flagged, the "filter icon" will not be visible, just as the "due" icon is not visible at the top of a list if there are no tasks with due dates. This way those who don't like the Unified view won't even know it's there.
Now to how this can help with projects:
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If a project includes parallel sub-tasks, then you can display any number of those sub-tasks in the Unified view by simply flagging them. You can flag all or some, depending on your preference.
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If a project includes sequential tasks, you first arrange them in the appropriate order and then (in edit mode) click on the chain link icon of each task in the sequence. Obvioulsy the task at the top of the sequence is the first step that needs to be taken to get this sequence done. The dependence of these tasks needs to be made visible. My suggestion is that a thin colored box appears around the whole sequence. If you want to add a task to this sequence, just drag it into the box to the appropriate place. To remove a task, drag it out of the box. The box should stay visible when you exit the edit mode. Reordering tasks within the box will only be possible in the edit mode. If you're not in edit mode, you can only drag the whole box. Thanks to the box, you can have any number of sequences within a project, recognize them immediately and keep sequential tasks and parallel tasks visually seperate. You can create these task dependencies on any hierarchical level. Now, to move sequential tasks into the Unified view, all you need to do is to flag the uppermost task. This will display this task in the Unified Next list. Completing this task automatically moves the next task in the sequence to the Unified view. If you prefer to see more than the Next Action in this sequence to remember which step follows the Next Action (some have expressed this wish in previous posts), then all you need to do is flag the appropriate number of tasks in the box. In other words, if you're looking at a project in edit mode and you click the two uppermost tasks of a sequence, then these two tasks will be shown in Unified with the box around them, and possibly with the second task greyed out (or something like it). Completing the first step will move the second to the top of the box and will make step 3 appear.
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While I initially liked the idea of seperate lists within a project view (e.g. Next Actions, Future Tasks and Completed Tasks as suggested in this great thread: http://help.nirvanahq.com/discussions/problems/11-next-as-next-acti...), I think you can accomplish the same by flagging sub-taks, while at the same time keeping all lists looking the same.
How to get rid of Later:
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Clicking on "Projects" in the left navi will show you the current list of all active projects. Additionally, if you've made projects inactive, the list of active projects will be followed by a header called "Inactive Projects". Clicking on the book of an active project will move it down to the Inactive section (instead of Later), clicking on the book of an inactive project will move it to Active Projects. This way all projects, whether active or inactive will remain in the same place - the Projects folder. To reduce "clutter", make it possible to fold and unfold the Inactive Projects view to either reveal or hide the inactive projects.
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Now you can remove inactive projects and "later tasks" from your radar (if you so desire) without needing the Later list. So, next action: get rid of the Later list. :)
Making Nirvana work this way should satisfy different groups of users:
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Those who like the old Next list vs. a Unified Next list.
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Those who want a unified Next list that doesn't seperate sub-tasks from single actions.
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Those who want to see only those sub-tasks in Next which are next in line (i.e. Next Actions vs. Future Tasks)
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Those who want to further filter Next to show only those tasks that they'll actually get to work on, say, next week - like Elbert's wife, myself, or my fellow fortune tellers. ;)
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Those who find the Later list revolting and despicable.
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Those who like the star function but want their lists to be visually as simple as possible.
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Those who want all projects (whether active or inactive) in one place and all actionable tasks in a single list.
Thoughts?
Comments are currently closed for this discussion. You can start a new one.
2 Posted by martin.tyler on 01 Jul, 2010 09:14 PM
Are you saying the next list with project headers would show all project tasks (as it does now)? I see no value in that.. next should be just that NEXT. I would like the option to group stuff (project headers, or even context headers, or time/effort headers) and also the more concise unified list - but both should only be showing actionable items.
If anyone really sees value in a long list, with project headers and ALL their tasks i would prefer it elsewhere, eg when you click on the 'projects' folder, and have a toggle in that view to show the tasks with headers, or just the projects.
I think this whole 'later' thing has come around because we dont have a proper 'actionable' concept - all the next list suggestions seem to want this.. which means the tasks that some people seem to think they need 'later' for are just project tasks that are not actionable yet
3 Posted by Proximo on 01 Jul, 2010 09:48 PM
I have to chew on this one because it has so much meat on it.
Great post Lasse and I was only teasing about "Fortune Tellers" :-)
4 Posted by Lasse on 01 Jul, 2010 10:11 PM
@Proximo: Yes I know, but I just couldn't resist bringing them up. :)
@martin.tyler: In the past other users have expressed that they'd like to be able to view their projects from within Next. Personally I don't need this option. But if it's possible to find a solution that works nicely for as many people as possible, then I think that's the best way to go. Now, I don't mean that we should settle for the lowest common denominator just to please everyone. But if there's an easy way to accomodate the wishes of as many users as possible, while not sacrificing any of the final product's quality, then I think that's how things should be done. And I think with the kind of Next list I'm suggesting, those who don't want all tasks (including all sub-tasks) in there, won't notice that this option is there while those who don't want a unified Next list won't notice this either.
5 Posted by martin.tyler on 01 Jul, 2010 10:22 PM
@Lasse - as far as I have gathered from posts on here, people want to view project tasks in next as-they-are-now, but if we have a real concept of next (ie actionable) then that is all next should show, that is why it is called next surely!
if people need to view all project tasks it should be elsewhere - i actually doubt anyone needs that though once we have a proper concept of next/actionable - the only time you need to see non actionable items is at review, which is better done by going through each project, not in one big list
6 Posted by Proximo on 01 Jul, 2010 10:34 PM
@Martin.tyler
I agree with you.
The Next list should show ALL Next Actions. This includes single actions and Projects NA's. It should not show any task from Projects that are not currently set as the NA's.
If a Project has more than one NA, we should be able to choose them and have them show on the Next list.
Not separated by some header, but in a unified list that shows all Next Actions.
I know many of us have said this thousands of time already. That is what a Next list is.... All NA's.
Lasse does have a bunch of good ideas, but I am just simply making a comment on this part for right now.
7 Posted by Lasse on 01 Jul, 2010 11:13 PM
@martin.tyler: I don't quite get what you mean with "once we have a proper concept of next/actionable"? Could you explain this, please?
8 Posted by martin.tyler on 01 Jul, 2010 11:30 PM
I mean what i think everyone has been suggesting...
a next list that works like the today list - ie a list that shows next actions (things that can be done without doing anything else first)
this is the main thing holding me back with Nirvana at the moment - all the changes that just came in were welcome, but for me this one thing is fundamental and i have to work around it by using a tag to mark things as actionable
9 Posted by Lasse on 02 Jul, 2010 08:10 AM
Just had another idea: I know nothing about coding so I have no clue whether batch edit - the ability to change task properties of multiple tasks at once - is hard to do or not. However, should this ever become a reality - or in other words a dream come true :) - then this is how it could work: Clicking the edit button would make the checkboxes turn into circles to signify that clicking there will select a task and not mark it as completed. Changing a property of one task would automatically change the respective property in the other selected tasks. And by being able to select multiple tasks irrespective of their place in the list, you'd have a way to move multiple tasks without them having to be next to each other (as is the case now).
And even though this is double posting, here's a thought I just expressed in a different thread but which really belongs here:
Clicking the edit button could also make a trash and an archive symbol appear at the top of the list because this would be just another way to edit the list. This wouldn't really be much different from the way it works now, with the exception that you'd have one place less to remember for editing your list (i.e. you don't have some features in "edit", some in the bar up at the top, etc.).
Another suggestion off topic: Please reduce the empty "due" date field to half its size and add an identical "scheduled" field next to it. I use scheduled more often than due an would like easier access to it.
10 Posted by Lasse on 03 Jul, 2010 08:33 AM
Just wanted to let you know that I've substantially edited my original post to include suggestions about how to make sequential projects work in Nirvana and to make a few corrections (the folder icon isn't necessary, renamed Focus to Unified to use the existing term).
11 Posted by Jody on 06 Jul, 2010 11:13 PM
@martin.tyler & Nirvana developers - I'm with you @martin.tyler... the absent of a "real" next actions list is the reason that I continue to use TD. I keep checking back here to see if they've got this one straightened out yet but am getting the sense that the need for this just isn't a priority. I truly hope that I am wrong. I see all of this other "mush" being added and yet the fundamental functionality as a GTD tool seems painfully missing.
Please, developers, give us an update on this. There may be many people like @martin.tyler and myself who are eagerly waiting to switch to Nirvana when this functionality is available!
12 Posted by Proximo on 08 Jul, 2010 01:52 PM
@Jody
I agree that a Unified Next list should be extremely important and I will go as far as saying that it's the MOST important change they can make next. Repeating task and Task attachments are also very important, but I would prefer for the next upgrade to be a Unified Next List.
I know it's not always easy from a coding perspective but the way it should work is actually very simple.
ALL Next Actions live in the Next list. Single NA's and Project NA's. All they need is the ability for the user to choose what Project task are NA's and have them show up in the Next list. The Project task that are NA's stay in the Project view as well but are marked as NA's.
The Next list should not separate single NA's from Project NA's. The only thing Project NA's need is the same view as the Today list, where the link to the associated project is listed to the right of the task description. This allows for true priority sorting of all NA's.
That's it. The way I see it is so simple.
P.S. I am learning to code but it's a slow process. :-)
13 Posted by Jody on 08 Jul, 2010 02:16 PM
@Proximo -
I'm with you - it's just another today list without the, well, "today-ness"! :) I do "get" the coding issue but when you already have a folder working essentially the same way, the number of tweeks seems pretty small. That said, I just wish there was some indication that they are even TRYING to get it working.
It's very simple in my mind as well, exactly as you describe... they can be all mixed together and so forth. I don't mind prioritizing manually or by tags just give me the darn list to start with! :)
Support Staff 14 Posted by Elbert McLaughlin on 08 Jul, 2010 06:04 PM
Hi All -
So, we are on vacation this week, the whole company, in case you were wondering why we're a little less responsive. I'm checking in between family outings to keep tabs on everything. Starting to get the sense that folks think we don't care. Not so.
Please bear in mind that it's been (only) one week since we rolled out the new UI, which included Scheduled, Time/Energy filtering, multi-select/drag drop, inline editing, slimmer project views, faster rendering and lower CPU overhead for slower machines, 90% network efficiency improvement, overall navi unification, and more.
Appreciate the passion everyone is bringing to the discussion, but I think me and my team should be able to take a breather. Save for the first 18 hours where the Next list was missing project tasks, the current release has not removed any of the previously available functionality. We've only added to it, yet I'm starting to feel (as I do with each release) that every time something gets improved people think we just don't care about other issues. Cut us some slack? Trying not to get demoralized here...
15 Posted by zen on 08 Jul, 2010 06:51 PM
@Elbert: Enjoy the vacation! You and your team deserve it!
I like the new enhancements and look forward to future updates. I've canceled membership to RTM and migrated my tasks to Nirvana.
16 Posted by martin.tyler on 08 Jul, 2010 06:59 PM
@Elbert
Everyone appreciates that these things take time and we all work hard.
It cuts both ways though, a number of people here put a lot of effort into providing feedback and suggestions and the main thing people seem to be asking for doesn't appear to get much response from you - so we too are trying to not get demoralized!
This feature has been talked about for a long time, so when a new release comes out and its not there, and in fact initially things went backwards, its hard to understand the direction Nirvana is taking.
So, as i said here and elsewhere, it would be nice to get more of a response on this MAJOR feature that a number of people are saying is the main thing stopping them moving to Nirvana.
17 Posted by Lasse on 08 Jul, 2010 07:02 PM
@Elbert,
as I've previously mentioned, I think the update is great! One of my foremost wishes was a way to filter "later" task. In fact, I wanted it so much that I was willing to spend hours discussing the idea over and over again with Proximo in various threads! :) I'm really glad that there's a way to do this now. I was a bit surprised about the addition of a new list and I think had Later simply been a filter in Next, I would have been so beside myself with excitement that I might have started slapping my co-workers too! :)
From the discussions in the forum in the last two months or so, I got the impression that the one feature people were hoping for the most was the so-called Unified Next List. I think the uproar was caused mostly because people expected this to be part of this update. Instead, they ended up with less of a Next list than they had before. So in a way it's like Christmas as a kid when you get tons of great presents but not the one you were really, really hoping for. (And it's like having the chance to play the game for third place after you were fully expecting to win the world cup! Still feeling yesterday night's disappointment!) And I guess it's like in many marriages: Sometimes the fact that we love our spouse is so obvious to us that we tend not to mention it (after all, why would we have gotten married in the first place if we weren't sure that this is what we want), and tend to focus more on things that aren't working like we think they should. As for myself, I'll admit that I've been busy posting about Later and the Next list and haven't taken the time to express my excitement about the new release. However, I'm as excited about the changes as I was when I first saw glimpses of them in the screenshots. I love the Scheduled feature (with the ability to schedule a task by dragging it to Scheduled - something I didn't realize until yesterday), love the tag cloud (especially the "all" feature), I'm still all for later tasks and like the idea of Later being a filter in Next. The arrows have been replaced, the star feature is great, task counts have been added, and the quick add function works great. In other words, I'm loving it! :)
18 Posted by DC Clarke on 08 Jul, 2010 07:06 PM
@Elbert - You guys do deserve a break and its obvious you all have been working very hard on getting Nirvana where you want it to be. After all, the program has come quite a ways forward since I joined which doesn't seem that long ago.
I wouldn't take the comments as demoralizing! The passion you see is the devotion we all have to seeing Nirvana make it to the top!
What has many of us concerned is not your devotion to the development of the program (that part clearly shows!), but the direction you are taking it. Many, if not most of us (those who are vocal on the forums anyway), are hoping that Nirvana will become a true GTD list manager having both the flexibility required for use in a real GTD system and the feature set required to execute proper GTD flow.
There are certain core elements of functionality required that no matter how much icing gets applied, still result in a nasty tasting cake! OK, really bad example. The thing is Nirvana's cake has always tasted good! (until recently, kinda found some lumps... ok ok I'll stop).
No, please don't get discouraged! But it may be helpful at this point to shift some of our discussions away from the specific operation of features to the GTD flow methodology so that we (the beta testers) and you (the developers) have a common understanding as you move forward with development. Just a suggestion.
Nirvana is my primary tool right now and I think that's saying something!
Spoiler warning: There is no cake!
19 Posted by Proximo on 08 Jul, 2010 11:16 PM
@Elbert,
Relax and enjoy the time off. We all appreciate you and the Nirvana team for all you do.
20 Posted by Jaco on 10 Jul, 2010 11:52 AM
Albert,
I've just joined the beta a few days ago (migrated from Todoist), and I'm loving it. You guys are doing something amazing. I can see lot's of posts here are talking about features, but it's hard to see which ones are most important. I think that lot's of these ideas are valuable, and can direct you to popular / best features to focus on first. Thus, I would suggest you guys implement some kind of quantitative voting system to be more analytical about feature needs than just discussion boards... Just an idea... hope it helps. Keep-up your amazing work. Jaco
21 Posted by MardiGrasStephen on 10 Jul, 2010 02:16 PM
@Elbert,
Enjoy the vacation. Not that you guys and girls report to us but a note on the blog would have avoided some of the feelings of being neglected.
Don't go down the path of being demoralized. You have over 1000+ followers on twitter and a few very passionate people on the discussions. You are not going to make everyone happy. Perhaps a poll would be a little better way of getting feed back from the masses on certain options, next features.
Just watch the daily usage stats to help you steer things for the long term.
With that said, unplug, step away from the keyboard and relax. You are doing a great job and have earned it.
Stephen
22 Posted by schelske on 10 Jul, 2010 02:29 PM
Demoralized? Oh, man.
First, to Elbert and the crew... Please disregard any sense that people are disappointed. Individuals might be because their particular interest wasn't represented. But you don't owe us anything. You're giving us an amazing tool, presently you're giving it to us for free. So, please let those comments slide right off your back. You're already making the internet and GTD world a better place, and if development stopped today, Nirvana is already better than any tool I've tried (and I'm a software, UI, and GTD nerd.)
I think people are excited because most developers don't seem to listen this much to their community, or beta testers. So, when someone's particular voice doesn't get reflected in a release, it's easy to feel a bit let down. But, like I said, you don't owe us anything. Continue to be guided by your vision and passion, taking our input into account. But don't let us become your bitter, harping girlfriend.
Now to users - particularly to the one who said he was demoralized because a particular change didn't go his way. Seriously? You are using this tool for free. Free! You aren't investing hours and hours and dollars developing it. I've used SAAS applications before where the developers didn't respond for months at a time, new releases came out eighteen months apart, and there was no coherent or public direction of where the project was going. AND I was paying over a hundred bucks a month to use the service. THAT is an appropriate place to feel demoralized.
Not here. Get over yourself. Please.
Nirvana - you're doing amazing things, and I'm very excited to be on the ride.
23 Posted by martin.tyler on 10 Jul, 2010 05:18 PM
@schelske
If you are referring to me i think you have not really read what I said. It's nothing to do with a change 'not going my way'. I just pointed out that a number of us are putting a lot of effort in to suggesting things and one main common theme that most people who are fairly active here seem to have described a number of times seems to have not been understood at all and only in the last few days have we got much of a response about it and that response seems contradictory to GTD.
btw, this is not a free tool, it's a free phase for a commercial service. Yes we are getting something for nothing at the moment, but we wouldn't be using it now if we weren't planning on paying when it comes to it. Hundred bucks a month? I didnt realise feeling demoralized had some kind of monetary limit - at what point are you allowed to be demoralized? :)
Let's get back on track - all anyone wants here is for Nirvana to become better. We have developers that are active, and active on the forum - so lets make the most of this beta phase - users, make your suggestions, developers let us know your ideas and your thoughts on ours.
Lets get back to the unified next list on this thread..
David McLaughlin closed this discussion on 04 Feb, 2011 02:39 AM.