a syncing feeling
George
via web
Since it is obvious that development is proceeding with the
emphasis on getting out of beta and into a commercial product and
the much desired native mobile apps (mainly android and iphone) are
not forthcoming, why not let a third party app provider sync with
nirvana ?
I have been looking at WebIs 's pocketinfomant which syncs with
toodledo. Nice.
As I've stated in another post, my experience with Nirvana leaves me constantly ready to bolt. I love Nirvana but she has no Android Native app and no nesting and ....... well you get the idea. I don't want to sound ungrateful and I do understand the meaning of Beta but I am constantly tempted to stray because of my longings (todoist, toodledo, nozbe, actioncomplete.....).
2 Posted by Proximo on 21 May, 2011 03:42 PM
George,
I understand were you are coming from. Here is what I found.
GTD is less about having the perfect tool and more about developing a system that you can trust. Too many of us focus on the applications for GTD and spend more time looking for the perfect one, rather than spending that time getting things done.
GTD can be done with pen and paper so there is no reason to spend so much energy looking for the perfect digital app. Just like everyone else around here, I love using digital apps and look forward to more features I would like for my GTD setup, but the idea of jumping from one application to the next due to lack of certain features is a waste of my time.
I quit the application jumping and just realized that my GTD system is comprised of several components that make it work. The more features that Nirvana includes, the better but the feature list is not what makes me productive for GTD. My habits and a trusted system is what makes me productive.
Now I am getting things done, while using a very good app for a big part of my GTD needs. When new features come, I welcome them but nothing is a show stopper for me because GTD is not about the application you are using. GTD is about you developing a trusted system that allows you to work on the right things.
Based on my experience of wasting so much time in the past with application hoping, I recommend that we focus more on our GTD system and good habits. Spend less time trying to make one super GTD application that becomes 100% your system, because I don't think one exist or ever will.
Let's focus on GTD habits and let the application we choose improve with time. This takes your focus away from the app and puts it were it matters, which is getting things done.
Just a thought.
3 Posted by George on 21 May, 2011 04:30 PM
Proximo,
I agree with what you say and appreciate your p.o.v.
Every time I let my thoughts stray and explore other apps I inevitably end up sighing and telling myself to stay with Nirvana.
I like Nirvana thus far but can't help having a wish list. The mobile app for android resides on the top of that wish list.
My post above was (in my mind) perhaps a good suggestion. Let another developer like the folks who made pocketinfomant do the heavy mobile app lifting. Just allow the syncing.
Since I'm not coding this app (Nirvana N2) I can't be sure what difficulties this entails but I thought I'd throw it out there.
Thanks for the reply.
g
4 Posted by Proximo on 22 May, 2011 04:11 AM
I also want some features that are not available and a native app is important.
I have to restrain myself from looking at the latest GTD app that shows up because it kills my productivity.
I feel Nirvana is moving in the right direction so I just stick with them and continue to focus on my task.
I am sure 3rd party sync will be available when the API is released.
5 Posted by Mark on 22 May, 2011 04:53 PM
If we were being honest with ourselves, I think nearly everyone who spends lots of time evaluating new GTD apps (and who hangs around here) does so because it's interesting, not because they're desperately looking for yet another incremental increase in personal productivity. Which is fine, of course.
And I certainly agree that there are any number of online task list solutions that can very easily be made to work, and work well. That said, though, I think if one is going to commit to a cloud-based list manager that mobile access is a basic and essential part of the package. And the current lack of that is what kills Nirvana for me at this point. The mobile web version is clunky, and when offline is slow enough to be unusable ... and more importantly, when I tested it I was able to get things out of sync very easily. That's completely unacceptable ... so until there's a native mobile app I won't be able to use or recommend Nirvana.
(My apologies for the cranky tone of this post ... this is pretty fundamental stuff, though.)
6 Posted by George on 23 May, 2011 01:08 PM
So Mark? What tools do you use?
7 Posted by Mark on 23 May, 2011 01:58 PM
Right now, my lists are in Todoist ... the UI isn't as handsome as Nirvana's, but it's clean-lined and fast, with lots of keyboard shortcuts. I love the way it allows for the easy hierarchical organization of sub-projects and subtasks ... it's really brilliant.
There's a third-party Android app for it called TodoistDroid ... it supports most of the website's features and is fast and solid. No offline use, though, which is a major disappointment.
Everything that's not list-based goes into Evernote, which is the single most important service I use, by far. I long for a quality task manager that integrates fully with Evernote, but there isn't one yet ... that would be a killer feature for me. Evernote now allows you to create hard links to specific notes, which is a big help, and I tag Evernote items with related Todoist project names, as well. For major projects that involve travel, I simply copy the complete Todoist list for it, and put it into Evernote. That's my kludge for offline mobile access, for now.
For quickly recording and inputting stuff on the fly, I use a brilliant little Android app called Vocanote. I've put together a simple little Python script that combines with an applescript to get those things into my Todoist inbox ... which is where all my random jottings initially go. I review and categorize all the Todoist stuff every morning, and reassign priorities for my tasks.
And that's it for now. I'm carefully watching Tracks, though, and have wondered about moving that way. I'm a very big fan of the open-source nature of the project, and the recently-released 2.0 version includes support for task dependencies, which is great.
And of course, I'm still monitoring the progress of Nirvana, too. I'm going to wait and see what their business model looks like at release ... but if Nirvana gets a viable mobile solution and a more robust subtask (or dependencies) system, it'll be very appealing.
8 Posted by George on 23 May, 2011 02:34 PM
I've been looking at Todoist. Also, Toodledo with Pocketinfomant looks like a good choice.
Been using Nirvana N2, but as I said, a mobile app would be huge. Problem is, it's been slow to mature (I'm losing patience).
I agree with Proximo about not getting too distracted with the hunt for the perfect system (I suspect he too has strayed down that path in the past). But I don't need perfect, just good and reliable will do thank you.
As for Nirvana, I'm not complaining. After all it's free and is still in development. Beggers can't be choosers though and so I am flirting with adapting a more robust set of tools. I dwell in the hybrid world of Apple PCs and an Android phone (seems perhaps you do too). I think this is getting to be much more prevalent.
I too use Evernote. Would you be willing to share that applesript?
Have you looked at and considered anything else? ActionComplete? Toodledo? etc.
Thanks for the dialogue. It's somehow comforting to know I'm not alone.
As for the folks at Nirvana. Thanks for your efforts. I plan on keeping a foot in this world and hoping your efforts result in a robust tool that I can utilize more fully. I surely will contribute my ideas and suggestions when the occur to me.
9 Posted by travis on 23 May, 2011 05:12 PM
I think the mobile version of n2 is awesome and works perfect on my iPhone, feels just like an app. I have it bookmarked as an app icon right on my first screen, easily available and loads very fast.
@Nirvana - Have you guys looked at Titanium? It will take your already existing html 5 mobile site and turn it into an app for iPhone and Droid.
10 Posted by Proximo on 24 May, 2011 10:07 PM
@Mark
I think you are absolutely correct about why we try so many applications. It's not the hunt for a better app with more features, but just the excitement of playing with a new app that could potentially replace the one you currently use.
Very true if people are honest as you say.
@George
"(I suspect he too has strayed down that path in the past)"
Are you kidding me? I used so many GTD Apps that I can't remember them all. For a long time, it was like a weekly game for me. Let me Google "GTD" and see how I can waste 2 to 3 hours trying out something new.
Eventually I realized that I was hooked at looking for the next big thing but it did nothing for my productivity. It was like an excuse for me to keep evolving my GTD system, rather than just creating a system that works for me and be done with it.
I also agree with the importance of the mobile app. I learned to do without it, but this does not mean I don't think it's important. I simply just stopped looking for the next big thing because it would start an un-productive cycle that I don't want. Nirvana is one of the best and I figured out how to use it as part of my overall GTD system and be happy. Do I want more functionality and mobile apps? You bet, but I am not going to start another hunt for a GTD application just because of that.
If Nirvana did not work for my GTD needs, I would be on a search. I think I found something that works, continues to get better and will eventually have the mobile app and other features that I want. So I am just staying focused on getting things done and resist the temptation of looking for something else.
11 Posted by George on 25 May, 2011 11:44 AM
Proximo,
Fair Enough. I acknowledge the validity of your experience and conclusions. It is a very pertinent warning with regards to chasing the wrong goals (productivity vs. chasing the ultra app) and I agree Nirvana has most of what any GTDer would want. But not all and development doesn't seem too rapid.
I am new to GTD (1st heard about it last November) and am just now coming to appreciate the method's potential. Now that I'm ready to commit, ready to buckle down and work the system, I want assurances before going all in. Is Nirvana really going to get there? You know, android app, nesting, syncing with google calendar, Evernote etc. I want to know I've done my homework and am not about to start something in earnest only to regret it later. Wasting time is not, as you have pointed out, a GTD trait.
Faith that Nirvana will eventually reach it's promise, the belief that all these things will come to those with patience, is all good and loyal and such but it doesn't address my needs now. I'm willing to wait for good things but I've got to at least believe these things are imminent. Is it me or are they really really slow? I mean if you go back through the suggestion threads, the the collective Nirvana people and their patience is almost saintly. Is Nirvana being developed by one guy in his spare time or is this a dynamo of code production?
I work on the road. I am a sound engineer and am on tour a good portion of my working life and thus a reliable and robust mobil app is an important element. Thus my needs are different than perhaps an office based guy. I'm looking at:
Todoist, Toodledo, Nozbe, Nirvana and Get It Done.
None appear to be perfect though they have strong followings and mobil apps to boot. I don't suspect the community here would be unbiased, but I would welcome any comments anyone might have regarding any of these including why you chose Nirvana over other solutions. (and especially why you've so much faith in it's development).
Support Staff 12 Posted by David McLaughlin on 25 May, 2011 01:07 PM
@travis - Titanium is what we are planning on using for development of mobile apps. We've already been playing around with a bit a this point.
David
13 Posted by George on 25 May, 2011 02:11 PM
David,
Can you predict a time when Nirvana and it's Mobil incarnation will have reached Launch Ready maturity?
Like I said, I'd be more than happy to stay with and support Nirvana but I gotta know how long the wait.
Thanks
14 Posted by david-drake on 25 May, 2011 08:53 PM
@George,
We are all quite anxious about having native apps, whether it be for the iPhone, iPad, or Android. I am absolutely confident that the Nirvana team will get these done and they will be outstanding. I know it is hard to be patient, believe me. I posted so much on issues that I became a complete ass and annoyance to David and Elbert. I have learned that this does not do anyone any good.
Like Proximo, I have tried just about every "GTD" website out there. While many are okay to good, and have dedicated, native apps, I am telling you from my experience that there is nothing better than Nirvana for GTD. So...I am going to be patient and see how things develop. If you see the need to go to something else, please check back down the road. Nirvana is only going to get better and better.
My two cents....for what it is worth...
-David
15 Posted by Elurven on 26 May, 2011 09:25 AM
When it comes to being a GTD app junkie, I believe that I am up there with the best of them (i.e. Proximo, david-drake and others) ;-). I have tried Things, Todoist, Remember the Milk, Toodledo (which I still probably can't spell), ThinkingRock and countless others. I have also been sniffing around Omnifocus for a while. I believe that AlternativeTo was in fact the start page in all of my browsers for quite some time. Getting lost in GTD app alternatives was a drug that I was very keen on using.
But what it all comes down to (at least for me) are a few basic criteria that needs to be fulfilled.
1. I need to be able to access my system on my computer at work.
2. I need to be able to at least view my system while on the move.
3. I want a system that is as easy as it could be, but no simpler (to quote David Allen).
4. I want developers that take into account the views and opinions of their users.
5. I want a sleek and well designed system that does not get in the way of the goal of the system, which is getting things done.
6. I need a cross platform system
Everything else, such as native apps would be really appreciated and useful, but to me, it is icing on the cake. Very good icing though, mind you.
And to get into more detail:
I work on a Windows server so my options of installing programs are very limited. But I have always made it my goal to stay very friendly with the IT department, which cuts me some slack when it comes to testing new programs. I am the IT guinea pig in that regard I suppose ;-).
I do most of my work in the office, but when I am at meetings offsite I usually bring a computer and a wireless modem, which gives me internet access. And if I am away from a computer, my iPhone can take care of that issue for me. Nirvana has both the usual web version and a mobile version. The latter is a bit slow in my opinion, but it will do in a pinch.
A system should be neither to simple, nor too complex. This is a difficult challenge for developers, but the Nirvana team has shown that they have a good understanding for this balance in the way that they implement new features.
The Nirvana team seems to listen to their users. A task that I imagine can be both interesting and rewarding as well as frustrating. There are a lot of beta testers out there with many opinions, but it feels like there is a consensus on at least the major issues and on how to move forward.
Design is important to me, I have to admit. It feels more rewarding to work in a sleek system (or with sleek hardware). I suppose that you don't really think about it that often if it is well designed, but ugly design gets in your face all of the time.
I work at a PC in my office, but sometimes on different servers, so I need a system that can be accessed from anyone of those. I also have an iPhone and an iPad, along with a Mac at home. So I am forced to work cross platform, every day.
What I am getting at here, is that I think that the Nirvana developers have shown that they understand all of the priorities stated above. And at least in my opinion, they have also shown that they are dedicated to keep Nirvana moving forward on all of these fronts.
P.S: Sorry for the long-winded comment, but keeping things short is apparently not in my bag of tricks ;-).
16 Posted by Mark on 26 May, 2011 04:11 PM
@George: Since this is a Nirvana forum, it might be a little too much topic drift to post or discuss the Todoist scripts here, but you can see how the basic idea works by looking at this page, which was my starting point. I customized it for my specific server setup ... you could easily do the same, but you'd need to be fairly familiar with both python and applescript.
And ln broader terms, I want to emphasize that I don't intend for my comments to be either cranky or trollish. There are a lot of things I like about Nirvana, and I want it to succeed, which is why I keep checking in here. I just don't feel, though, that I can use what is for me an incomplete system, simply based on the vague promise of future enhancements.
And remember, as people keep repeating the "keep it simple" mantra: there's not one definition of the perfect, simple feature set ... each user will have their own. For Nirvana to achieve market success, it's going to need to be relatively full-featured, but present a simple and intuitive UI, so that people can pick their own subset of features to use, without being hindered by the presence of ones they don't want. There are already a million cloud task-manager apps out there with simple feature sets, and many of them are free. Nirvana will need more than its shiny UI to convince people to forsake those and start paying.
17 Posted by Proximo on 26 May, 2011 06:23 PM
@Elurven,
I think the list of things you are looking for match up with me perfectly.
Very well said.
@Mark
I have no idea what your talking about. "cranky or trollish".
Your remarks are first class.